How to pull yourself out of a hole?

[Merzbow]

Pangaea, Prince difficulty, Saladin, normal size. I'm quickly finding out that normal size Pangaea maps are very crowded. I was only able to plop down two cities before being hemmed in on all sides, so I quickly realized that to win I would have to take land by force. Montezuma and Khaaaaan were to my south and east, and knowing that these jerks would never leave me in peace anyways, I decided to pick on them.

Fast forward to 1700 AD. Montezuma is dead and Khan is harmless and my empire is large but in a sorry state financially. It goes without saying that I'm behind tech-wise also. Since all of my cities have been doing nothing but pump out units for 1500 years, they have almost no improvments also.

It seem obvious that the game doesn't provide you with enough time to fight yourself out of an ass starting position without falling seriously behind. I consider this a flaw, and will probably start playing epic length with a modified unit cost to offset this.

By 1950 Roosevelt is going to be launching a spaceship. Can I still pull this game together and how? I don't think I could have ended the fighting much before 1700 AD; I am an efficient fighter but needed this much time to weaken/destroy those two clowns to the point where they wouldn't be a threat.

[Addled Platypus]

Re: How to pull yourself out of a hole?

Originally posted by Merzbow


It seem obvious that the game doesn't provide you with enough time to fight yourself out of an ass starting position without falling seriously behind. I consider this a flaw, and will probably start playing epic length with a modified unit cost to offset this.

It was clear to me the style of game and the goals you set up .
It was your choices that led to your action of calling it flawed.

Changed tactics?.

I managed to survive a game with 4 cities, not a win though and a lesson learned

Once I get 5 cities rolling, they all dont produce military units.
1 or 2 will produce improvements, hopefully a wonder.

[The diplomat]

Re: How to pull yourself out of a hole?

Originally posted by Merzbow
Since all of my cities have been doing nothing but pump out units for 1500 years, they have almost no improvments also.

This is why protracted wars are a bad thing in civ4. It is not a flaw in the game. It is a matter of strategy and the player needs to adapt.

[Fried-Psitalon]

If you go to war early and hard, you're going to feel financial side effects. Next time, don't just attack someone because you assume they'll attack you, and focus on the kind of enhancements that will allow you to survive financially. Incidentally, I bet if you disband down to 2 units per city, check your civics for what you need vs. what you want, and make a point to build courthouses right away, you might be surprised at the recovery you make - perhaps even enough to threaten Roosevelt militarily, as he focuses on the space race.

[Addled Platypus]

well said FP

war has to be planned, balanced, and coordinated much more than before

as they say "if yoou live by the sword so shall ye die by the sword"

[LzPrst]

problem is, if the AI declares war on you it just might well be long and protracted regardless of what you do...

[Derelict]

Fried nailed it on the head I think. It's the basic story of going warmonger from early in the game--vast but lagging empire. That's the next real question for you: How do you intend to win it?

Personally, since I've played by and large warmonger in all my games to date I've been in the exact situation you describe many times. However, you really can turn it around and even glide to an easy win if you manage things right. 1700's is a little late to get started but it's still within the realm of possibility.

Really your first decision is to decide how to win. If you have the largest country in the world, I'd shoot for space race. If not, you may want to turn your attention back to military and build up for an invasion of Roosevelt.

For the former (you're #1 in size), chances are you have a lot of cities who now just need your attention to become a modern superpower. You need to make sure that you aren't an invasion choice yourself, however. Check your status as far as # of soliders goes and consider the tech level they are at compared to everyone else. It's likely that you are lacking tech wise but that's OK. Being brawny may be enough to hold off the AI's eyeballing of your vast territory.

Just like Fried said, you need to get down to 2 defenders in most of your cities, 3 in the larger ones or those cities at most risk from invasion. Don't worry if you do get invaded, if you do this right the most you'll lose is a city or two that you can recapture fairly quickly.

Once you have 2 decent defenders in each city, more or less, do another round or three of unit building in order to create aggressive army stacks you can leave at locations that prime them to move into hotspots, should you be invaded. Be sure to get rid of outmoded units only after you feel that your defensive military is firmly in place, and eliminate them as you go rather than all at once. I made the mistake of getting rid of too many units too early in hopes of recovering financially a bit quicker, only to literally have the AI launch an attack on me the very next round as a result.

During the course of all this, depending on how badly your cities are off, you may need to alternate in the building of forges in more viable cities in order to be able to keep up production wise. Otherwise you'll be eternally stuck building units to stave off invasions, or the thought of it, by the AI. Also you need to work on the building of courthouses in order to get your finances in order. This is really important and can make a notable difference, one that will absolutely bloom when your industry modernizes. You may even be shocked at what a powerhouse you've become as you enter into the latter part of the 1800's/early 1900's. Unfortunately I don't think being Saladin will offer much in the way of a more speedy recovery.

Once you have your defenses in order, and a respectable number of aggressive troops, you can focus on a full round of city upgrades. Restore order with temples and definitely get everyone in gear for research--libraries, etc.--you need to catch up and the sheer number of your cities can do it if you really have a lot.

If you control any religions, now is the time to set a city aside to spread them around to your other cities, paying special focus on those that have unhappy citizens or are bordering on it.

Unless you really feel threatened, skip most production of musketmen. The period they are useful is brief and unless you really face something dire their usefulness will be outgrown by the appearence of riflemen.

Wait only as long as you can to start your second round of military revamp. Ideally you should be around 2nd and maybe 3rd place in solider number, possibly 1st if you've overbuilt or simply could manage it without losing focus on the non-military restructuring you need. Once rifleman hit, do another wave of military revamp before going full industrial--once you can build factories, go for it.

Also, if at all possible, try to produce some engineer GP. Even a single one can help you get three gorges, which will save you a cycle of building after your factories are up and will transform you into a true powerhouse. Being that you are Saladin, your hopes in this respect are feasible but to really follow suit in a strong way, make sure you get those courthouses and the forges up as soon as your military situation is in order.

During all of this, don't worry about your tech slider too much. Keep it at a level that has a small influx of cash coming in, even if that means having it as low as 40% or so for a while. Restructuring is more important, you can catch up if done right. Trade for techs when you can and research the cheaper techs available until your industry and financial situation start to recover.

By the time you round into the 1930's or so, if everything is in order, you'll have to focus very strongly on getting your space race in gear. Keep an eye on which cities are your strongest producers and dedicate them toward the goal while your smaller, but should still be moderately productive cities, will help keep you viable in a military sense.

If you can manage all that, the only other concern is diplomatic. Trying to make a couple friends, even signing a defensive pact or two, can really help prevent an invasion. If you have engineers available, build the Yard to get spies and put them in place to hamper Rosie, or whomever the current threat is.

Considering you are starting all this in 1700, it's a tough job to recover and make a win but I think you have enough time and can do it. The only other option is to restructure into a military fashion, and keep pushing that direction until you have a sizable and feasible force to invade Rosie, and continue your conquest/domination to the win. If you can make Saladin's Philosophical trait pay off, with engineers and a hopeful merchant or two, it'll put you a far sight ahead of the race.

Having seen the exact situation you're talking about a few times, neither will be easy with such a late start and a military option is probably not going to pull it off for you--just not enough time to exert yourself all over the globe with a lagging infrastructure.

Good luck with it though--if nothing else, consider it a lesson learned!

[QuestGAV]

Yeah, but how's he going to stay alive with 2 cities at 2 units per city? You need some kind of base to produce from. It might not be as big as he thought it was, but 2 cities on a normal map sets you up to get steamrolled. You've definitely got to branch out a bit from that situation if you want to be competitive.

Once you've got a reasonable critical mass of cities I'd agree with you though. Maybe his mistake was trying to go from 5 cities to 10 via military or 15 to 20, etc.

Edit: misread some of the advice above so it's not entirely applicable. Still, you did the right thing early, now that you've got a reasonable power base it's time to develop it all to potential. One of the great things about the lack of corruption is that recently captured lands can be turned into productive ones for you. War does pay off - eventually.

[Merzbow]

Thanks for the good points. I really think I had no choice but to reduce Montezuma to insignifigance. Every game I've ever played with Zuma as a neighbor he's attacked me at some point or another, otherwise I may have squeezed in cities 3 and 4 and gone for cultural. And while I was reducing Zuma Khan attacked me in the rear, so I concluded I had to cripple him.

I suppose what I would like to know is what date do people think of as the 'point of no return', that is, if you reach this point and are still somewhat behind, it becomes difficult to catch up? If that date was, say, 1500, then I would have stopped there with whatever I had and begged for peace.

Roosevelt and friends have cavalry to my grenadiers and camel archers, so going after them now is pretty much out of the question.

Actually now that I think about it more what I probably should have done is not have invaded Khan after I beat back his attack, instead I should have consolidated my Zuma wins and gone from there. This was around 1400-1500 or so. I'm sure I could have planted the units I had then as a good defense against future attacks from Khan. But boy, did I want revenge on that bastard - and his capital and second-largest city were sitting right there on his frontier stealing my tiles and ripe for the taking.

I now have around 2 billion captured workers and intend to micromanage them to create a set of powerhouse production cities and a set of powerhouse research/commerce cities. If I can't do this I'm basically lost.

[piko]

good luck

[Merzbow]

Honestly I'm finding it's quite easy to cream the AI in military tactics. Given enough time, it is ALWAYS possible to construct a proper stack of doom without your neighor AIs noticing and taking action, and then to launch that stack and easily take them over. The only thing that keeps this from being always viable is the tech race. Making the game longer while keeping unit cost the same would seem to overbalance the game to the player. I'll have to try one of these mods and see for myself if this is really the case.

[soztabak]

i played at prince level and monarch level standart pangea with 18 civs on it. in both games, every civ had hardly 2 cities whilst using chopping strategy and building worker / settler / settler i managed to get 3 cities.

i was playing indians although spiritual sucks, they have mining which leads to early bronze working research. also i directly head to judaism which i can research before everybody can.

3 cities, lots of missionaries, avoiding battle with my immediate neighbours but negotiating them to attack the second or third strongest (using them as buffer) i managed to get myself out of the hole, and i got victory around year 2000. however in both games my starting locations were fairly good. (i.e. not perfect but also not in the middle of nowhere)

[Utwig]

Organized religion for 25% building boost, spread it
Forges
Courthouses, markets, grocers, banks
workers, 1 per city, cottages

In your core cities produce miltary, wonders, technology,... rest of cities should focus on rebuilding.

[Handel]

You need at least 8 cities to be able to produce some buildings and national wonders, so 8-9 cities are a must. With such number of cities you can allow to divercify - 2-3 are pumping units, 2-3 are researching and 2-3 are building.

BTW - I play on epic settings, but the epic game often is boring on the original settings (they are simply stupid). So I modified them - left on "epic" the number of turns, the research and the inflation and everything else was returned to normal. So the game is much longer and feels like Civ 3.

[Brutus66]

Originally posted by LzPrst
problem is, if the AI declares war on you it just might well be long and protracted regardless of what you do...

This is sooo true, and frustrating if you're trying to build permanent alliances.
To be able to get to the alliance stage, you first need to establish defensive pacts. You need to be at peace to sign a defensive pact with anyone, and if some maniac AI declares war on you beforehand, you're screwed.
Meanwhile other AI civs get together in two or three-country alliances and their combined score and research power leave you in the dust.
It's happened to me a couple of times now, and it's usually some two-bit warlord with half of my military strength, on the other side of the globe with little chance of ever landing troops on my soil, that declares war and then refuses to talk to me for several turns after...
Oh well, gives me added incentive for building nukes I guess...