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Barbarians: the new Anti-Player Civ!

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  • #16
    Wow! Seems like everyone has a story of battling the mighty barbarian invasions.

    Soren and his gang did a good job representing the challenges all great empires faced of barbarians on the borders. The need for early standing armies to combat said barbarians, the race to develop new technology to defeat same and the impetus to push away at the vast unknown all make Civ IV a better game than its predecessors. Even the immense benefits of flood plains (great food generation) and rivers (commerce, trade routes and health) more accurately reflect their importance to early Terran civilizations - Egypt and Mesopotamia spring to mind! A city's ability to grow quickly IOT research and build units is more important now than ever before, even though one can actually stay friends with rival civs for 3 or 4 millennia!

    Over time, the barbarian problem is mitigated by the strength of the great armies a burgeoning civ can generate, along with the advances in weaponry. However, as seen by the other posts, the first couple of thousand years require a balance of building (get that tech tree planted!) and warmongering vs. barbarians to survive and eventually thrive.

    I started a new game yesterday: Huge/Noble/12 random civs (the dastardly Japanese showed up yet again and are already making trouble!) I definitely leaned more towards caution. Only one settler out of 12 ever moved without an escort - it was travelling through mine then a friendly civ's territory to get to a great location already controlled by a Forest specialist Warrior waiting for his new axe upgrade to arrive. Forest warriors, although weaker than other available units, rapidly patrolled the hills just outside the visibility of my borders, while more advanced units (axemen, archers and even spearmen) garrisoned the outer cities. A few hunting armies of axemen were positioned at strategic locations (2 to 3 turns from key cities) to take down barb warriors who may have taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque. The inner cities had light garrisons, generally units that had seen their battles vs. the hordes and earned their rest (ie the 10 XP maximum had been reached!)

    I was able to withstand several raids from the east (warriors==>archers==>axemen) before my first naval unit (galley) transported the elite 1st Quebec Axes to the forested hills outside Olmec. With the first attack, the unit gained anti-archer capabillities. Although two more Archer units remained, the Axes need R&R for 6 turns to replenish their ranks. Three turns later, an Egyptian chariot showed up to kindly remove the second archer (It seems they did indeed have some kind of advantage - I don't think they were even injured - I have a hard time figuring out the health bars...). The Quebecers, although understrength, used their unique archer knowledge to storm the last archer unit and Olmec was mine!

    Thus was my anger assuaged! I had faced my fears and conquered them! Almost prophetically, 7 turns after capture and 1 turn after becoming a truly Canadian city, Olmec witnessed the birth of Christianity, demonstrating that bringing civility to barbarians was the right thing to do! I must carry on, spreading my message of peace and religions (Confucianism, Judaism and Christianity) to the great unwashed. The mighty Quebec Axes, however, will not be participating in the campaign to bring civilization to the unclean barbarians. They will be returning home. They will redeploy to the Japanese Frontier and go into reserve status until needed (ie when I can get them past the 10 XP max!)

    Happily, I'll be home in 2 or 3 hours to continue the bloody Campaign of Peace!

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    • #17
      On another note, I have discovered where some of the barbarian cities come from. I found a camp(the sort that provides technology, money, and so on) with a barbarian warrior standing fortified on top of it. It would NOT attack after 7 turns standing around it. This leads me to believe that if those camps arn't investigated early, they become barbarian towns, which in time grow to become huge cities. I've also seen AI civs in a small war against a barbarian city before, though not spending many resources on trying to capture it(which I did fairly quickly).
      I think is logic is exactly right - I have noticed the same thing on a number of occasions.

      As an aside... what is the highest level unit you've ever seen for a barbarian?

      I've seen Longbowmen and Horse Archers, but never a catapult - anyone ever seen them with guns?

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      • #18
        Grenadiers and Riflemen in my last game.

        Tiny highlands map, 3 civs including mine and a lot of unclaimed space let them grow without check from anyone.
        The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power. Not wealth or luxury or long life or happiness: only power, pure power.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Targonis

          On another note, I have discovered where some of the barbarian cities come from. I found a camp(the sort that provides technology, money, and so on) with a barbarian warrior standing fortified on top of it. It would NOT attack after 7 turns standing around it. This leads me to believe that if those camps arn't investigated early, they become barbarian towns, which in time grow to become huge cities.
          I hope this helps.
          I noticed that too. I was putting wounded warriors nearby to try and lure the barb off the hut so I could pop it with a scout, but no bananas. He just stood there. Maybe you're right, and these are future city sites. Perhaps someone will test this sometime.

          I foolishly pillaged 3 Towns for a few coins outside a barb city which I took shortly after. What do they use the money for? It seems they get free research, free upgrades.

          btw - how does the XP cap work? Are you limited to a fixed number of promotions per unit, or per civ?

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          • #20
            With all the problems with pillaging I've had lately I'm thinking...

            Civs, the new anti-player Barbarians!

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            • #21
              I don't think the fortified tribal village becomes a town. I think that wandering barbarians who happen to pass within sight of a tribal village just take up station on top of it. In one of my early terra games, I had dropped two explorers onto the new world shortly after I developed Optics. As has turned out to be normal on terra maps, the barbarians had a number of cities there, with improvements and a trade network. However, I found several of those fortified tribal villages also during my explorations. I spent a great deal of time afterwards conquering the barbarian cities, and it wasn't until WELL later (I'd guess 40+ turns) before I got around to sending units after the single swordsman standing on the tribal village. It was still a tribal village with a swordsman on it.

              What I think happens is that barbarians randomly spawn. If the spawn point is beyond a certain distance of a civilization's borders, I think it has a chance of spawning as a town instead of as a lone unit. Once the town is there, it follows the normal production and growth rules. They'll build a second garrison unit, then usually a third unit that starts wandering, then a worker to build improvements. That cycle seems to continue. I've seen as many as 4 workers in a barbarian town, but I don't know if they were all produced in that town.
              Age and treachery will defeat youth and skill every time.

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              • #22
                To Cort Haus (if I have 8 of you in my country, I can build a Forbidden Palace!)

                The XP cap is 5 for animals, 10 for humans. This gets level 4 units (required for Heroic Epic) but not enough for Pentagon (level 5) which means war with rival civs is the only way to get the higher level units.

                I am now at war with the Romans. Apparently, the power of my culture is overwhelming them and they decided to smack me down. Or they may be going for the iron, horses and gold lumped around my border town. Either way, I will (hopefully) getting a level 5 unit soon!

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                • #23
                  From what I've noticed with barbarians it's pretty much an absolute requirement that you make a beeline for iron working and get axemen soon enough to actually build a few before the barbarians start sending wave after wave of them to sack your cities. The only way around this is to make sure every square inch of land on the continent is coveredy by either your cultural borders, another AI civ's borders, or the line of sight from one of your military units. If you do that then there's nowhere for any barbarians to spawn so you won't see any except for the rare barbarian row boat prowling the shores.

                  This is without "raging barbarians" turned on. If you're sadistic enough to turn on raging barbarians then I'd recommend going straight for iron working before researching anything else and build at least 5 axemen per city because you'll see waves of 5 or more axemen at a time coming for you every few turns.

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                  • #24
                    You can train Axemen with Bronze Working.

                    I think the kind of barbarian unit that spawns is random, there is a small chance that it will be a settler, which will make a town. I know it has nothing to do with barbarians guarding goodie huts.

                    I have also seen a barbarian bypass my lightly defended city to attack an AI's cities. I think they attack everyone equally, the AI is just better at patrolling it's borders.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Gufnork
                      You can train Axemen with Bronze Working.
                      True but for some reason I almost never start with copper even remotely within reach and frequently it doesn't exist at all on my continent so that means I have to go for iron working.

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                      • #26
                        Eagery??? In my game the other players parked a few warriors one tile away from a barb city near me.

                        I think that the AI was wanting me to do most of the work and get the city virtually for free, but I wasn't having anything to do with that and instead waited until I had more than enough Swords + City Raiders to take the town.

                        The town was worth it for the health benifits to the empire due to the whales and fish within its city raidus after one expansion.

                        Originally posted by Saurus
                        There is an ongoing thread about A.I cheating. It appears the A.I get a 70% bonus VS animals and a 40% bonus VS barbarians regardless of difficulty level.
                        If the Barbarians are aware of theese special bonuses, then they in fact even should be more careful about attacking the A.I than the human player.

                        To me this even explains why the A.I civs so eagerly seems to attack Barbarian cities.
                        1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
                        Templar Science Minister
                        AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now.

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