Monasteries are Obsolete -- I consider this a bug

[Bhruic]

Well, the simple solution would be to introduce some building that allows you to build missionaries after Scientific Method. That way you can still obsolete Monastaries (to lose the other benefits) without losing the ability to construct buildings to make Missionaries.

Bh

[Solver]

Yes, but you can still pursue a religious strategy in the late game, I've done it countless times. Just run Organized Religion or, easier yet, make sure to build Monasteries at some point pre-Industrial. Or, there's the option to delay scientific method a bit. It adds a bit more decision making without, IMO, removing anything.

Other things become obsolete with time, too. Wonders is where it matters the most, I will sometimes delay getting a particular tech only to make my wonders last longer. It's not exactly being punished, it's having to make a choice between the two.

[Cabbagemeister]

Originally posted by Bhruic
Well, the simple solution would be to introduce some building that allows you to build missionaries after Scientific Method. That way you can still obsolete Monastaries (to lose the other benefits) without losing the ability to construct buildings to make Missionaries.

Bh

How is that different from still allowing monasteries to be built, but just making them lose their culture/science bonus?

[Dominae]

Please do not call design features "bugs" if you happen to disagree with them.

It's unproductive; Firaxis will stop listening to your comments if you label them as bugs, because Firaxis' interest in code bugs is quite different from gameplay feedback (although they consider both very important).

If it's not clear to you what's design and what's potentially a bug, just ask.

[Cabbagemeister]

Originally posted by Solver
Yes, but you can still pursue a religious strategy in the late game, I've done it countless times. Just run Organized Religion or, easier yet, make sure to build Monasteries at some point pre-Industrial. Or, there's the option to delay scientific method a bit. It adds a bit more decision making without, IMO, removing anything.

Other things become obsolete with time, too. Wonders is where it matters the most, I will sometimes delay getting a particular tech only to make my wonders last longer. It's not exactly being punished, it's having to make a choice between the two.

Sure, I agree that it's still possible, even easy, to run a religious strategy. But I don't agree that there's more decision-making. Check it out:

Your options before Monastaries become obsolete:
1) Don't build missionaries
pro: your build queues are free, you can run whatever religious civic you want
con: you can't spread your religion
2) Run Organized Religion
pro: you can spread your religion, your build queues are free
con: your civic choices are constrained
3) Build monasteries
pro: you can spread your religion, youc an run whatever civic you want
con: your cities have to take the time to build monasteries

Whereas after Sci. Meth., you can only do option 1) or 2)


Seems to me like you have fewer strategic choices. Maybe in a "how much strategy is there" sense, this is offset by the fact that you have to plan so far ahead (do I want to build monasteries now, or run Org. Rel. later?), but given how unexpected situations can pop up in Civ, I'm not sure if mandating this kind of planning ahead is the best way to go.

[LzPrst]

ach, I think that when monasterys are obsoleted, all cities that contain the religion in question should be able to build missionaries. cause monasterys are in that time not the producers of missionaries, churches and organizations are.

RL example, the US (used to anyway) has divided church and state, but there are many american missionaries around the world. those missionaries are not educated in monasteries but in private religious schools and such. I dont consider it a bug. just poor design. something that I feel civ4 has a little too much of, thats why I'm ranting and raving and carrying on.

[Bhruic]

Originally posted by Cabbagemeister


How is that different from still allowing monasteries to be built, but just making them lose their culture/science bonus?

Because it's much easier to add a new building than it is to try and have a building selectively lose functionality.

Bh

[therover]

I'd just like to point out that you can build Monasteries after you discover Scientific Method. You just have to add them to your queue beforehand.
After you've discovered Scientific Method you just lose the option to add them to your queue.

Whether or not thats a bug is something I don't have the answer to, I just know that it works.

[Datajack Franit]

why am I already waiting for a patch? I bought civ4 three days ago

[xxFlukexx]

Yeah I didn't like the fact that Scientific Method obsoleted monasteries either. But I have accepted it and really it doesn't matter much. Scientific method also obsoletes the great library which I usually get so I wait as long as possible to get scientific method. I mean if you beeline for scientific method(dunno why anyone would want to do that) and don't build monasteries and then all of a sudden you want to spread your religion, I guess you are in trouble, but that is more of a user problem than a 'bug'.

But by the late game, most civs are either firmly planted in their religion or go to free religion, if you want the happiness from more religions to free religion I don't really get that, plenty of +happy buildings and you can always build temples + catherdrals, that's been way more than enough for all of my games on monarch.

If you are going for a cultural win, you definetly should not be researching scientific method, hell I don't even research calendar when I go for cultural victory because it obsoletes my stonehenge.

People like LzPrst are going crazy though. You can still spread your religion very fast late game, swap to organized religion if you need to. There are very, very few resons why you'd want to spread a minority religion late game. Makes sense that you can still spread religion late game but it's not that effective to do so. Hardly a reason to go omfg this game is brokenzors!

Btw, is that Bhruic from the MoO3 boards? Dude, this guy is like god to me, made tons of great MoO3 mods/fixes, this guy knows his stuff. Nice to see ya Bhruic.

[Utwig]

Well, monasteries cost 60 hammers, that's same as granary which is generally one of first buildings you build from the ancient era on or slightly more than a longbowman (50 hammers).

They are relatively cheap and building one per religion within your empire should really not be a problem by scientific methods. Also at the era when scientific methods comes close, you should be pretty much certain, whether you want to spread religion or not, so you can delay discovery of it a few turns and cash/pop rush monasteries and conquer cities with religion you lack for your strategy.

[Doktrjerms]

Originally posted by Dominae
Please do not call design features "bugs" if you happen to disagree with them.

It's unproductive; Firaxis will stop listening to your comments if you label them as bugs, because Firaxis' interest in code bugs is quite different from gameplay feedback (although they consider both very important).

If it's not clear to you what's design and what's potentially a bug, just ask.

I believe that I made it clear that I thought it was a bug, which implies that I am not sure. Also, am I talking to Firaxis? I am on a fan website. This is a serious question: why does everyone act like I am talking to Firaxis? I already sent them an E-mail. I would like to put your mind at ease, it was worded more appropriately.

Please see things from the other viewpoint: scientific method makes monasteries no longer produce science, which does not make them obsolete. It makes a feature, not all features, obsolete. So here we have a POSSIBLE BUG of making part of something obsolete instead making the whole thing obsolete. On the other hand, I see your point that this is possibly a game design issue. It does make sense from a certain point of view that Scientific Method precludes building any more monasteries.

To everyone else who states that this is easy to plan for: sure it is easy to plan for IF YOU KNOW IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN, which I didn't. Because obviously, I misunderstood the civilopedia, or it is a BUG.

Some other points:
* You can't always control when scientific method is discovered.
* There are many reasons you may need missionaries after scientific method, like conquering a new city with a new religion to you. Or another religion finally spreads to you.
* I realize that the civics still allow me to build missionaries. After I conquered the Aztecs just to get Buddhism and Judaism (to get all 7), I was smart enough to do this . I still would have rather built more monasteries.
* A city you build for missionaries (with a monastery) could get destroyed, taken over, or the monastery structure is destroyed by spies or by the city changing hands.

[Shades]

If you go into the city display, and look in the section where it lists buildings, you will see that Monastaries still produce +2 culture even after you have discovered Scientific Method. The only thing that appears to happen is that you can no longer produce them and that the +10% science bonus is lost. Though I haven't tested to see if the science bonus is actually lost.

[Grumbold]

Originally posted by Bhruic


Because it's much easier to add a new building than it is to try and have a building selectively lose functionality.

Bh

Are you suggesting that the pre-existing monasteries don't lose their scientific bonus? I thought they did.

[Shadowlord]

Doktrjerms, spies can't actually destroy existing buildings in Civ IV.

ICBMs can, though, right?