Civ 3 vs Civ 4 diplomacy

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Tiberius
What I am missing is that I can't trade everything for everything. I mean, I can't buy a tech with resources, for example.
Sometimes I'd like to buy a tech but I can pay only with money (if I don't have an exchange tech, that is). Let's say the AI is missing iron or coal or horses or some other strategic resources and it'd be a good deal for both of us to make an exchange, but we can't.

This was possible in civ3. Why was it removed?

It was too easy to exploit. When you mix gpt and such deals with instant trades, you have to teach the AI TONS of new stuff to handle risk and such.

[Kriegsspieler]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

It was too easy to exploit. When you mix gpt and such deals with instant trades, you have to teach the AI TONS of new stuff to handle risk and such.

That makes sense, but do you suppose that eventually either Firaxis or someone else could teach the AI to make more sophisticated deals? I find this set-up almost Civ1-like in its primitiveness.

And on a related subject: If you are trying to tweak a deal with someone, is there any way of finding out whether your counter-offer is close to reasonable? In Civ3 you could determine this for a certainly, of course, but I haven't yet seen any way of anticipating the response in this game.

[Pickles78uk]

thats what i miss most, the ability to see how far your counter offer is from being acceptable. I agree that diplomacy in civ 4 is lacking something compared to civ 3 and for me is the only thing that brings the game slightly down from 100% to about 98%. I am still addicted and will keep playing but i would love to see a change in diplomacy in the expansion pack when it comes out

[Lucian_Penyan]

I've had problems when I want to demand tribute from someone. The items on the diplomacy list are red and say "they just don't like you enough". I mean, I know they don't like me, I want to demand they give me something. The ai can demand tribute from you, why can't I do it to them? I know there's a game mechanic for demanding tribute, but it only works when you can put stuff on the table, right?

[Tiberius]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker

It was too easy to exploit. When you mix gpt and such deals with instant trades, you have to teach the AI TONS of new stuff to handle risk and such.

So what? Why do we have a feature removed every time the AI cannot handle it properly? If someone has fun in abusing/exploiting the AI he should be let doing so.
I cannot use an otherwise logical option only because someome could use it as an exploit against the AI? That's ridiculous.

Take an example:
1. no tech for resource trades.
Pro: the AI can't he abused (who cares?)
Contra: the humans cannot mix and match trades at their liking

2. allow tech for resource trading
Pro: I don't abuse the AI but have fun with my trades. Good
"Someone" might exploit the AI but supposedly he has fun doing so. Good
Contra: happy AI ??

This is not a new feature! It was already in civ3. Was it really so difficult to tweak it a bit and put it in civ4 too?

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Tiberius

Take an example:
1. no tech for resource trades.
Pro: the AI can't he abused (who cares?)
Contra: the humans cannot mix and match trades at their liking

I understand when you are talking about humans you mean MP - in which case what you are saying is not true, as you can easily give someone tech and then have him give you a resource - and voila, a perfect trade.

[Tiberius]

No. I don't mean MP. I am aware that humans are more flexible and can make things work the way you described. I played some MP demo games, you know

I mean that I'd be able to trade at my liking when playing against the AI.

[Pickles78uk]

All in all i think the dipolmacy is somewhat lacking compared with all the improvements made to the rest of the game! its still fun.

Diplomatic victory is so hard with more than 3 AI!!!! i was playing with 7 AI on a inland sea and i had 3 friendly contacts with defencive pacts and i was clearly in the lead and yet i still didnt win diplomatically, i had to wait another 60 odd turns to build my spaceship!

[Martinus]

Originally posted by Tiberius
No. I don't mean MP. I am aware that humans are more flexible and can make things work the way you described. I played some MP demo games, you know

I mean that I'd be able to trade at my liking when playing against the AI.

Well, I personally do not mind it really. Exchanging resources for techs has always been a bit of an exploit, since you can cancel the resource deal after 10 turns and you cant give back the tech.

[Hayden]

I think they were correct in removing this feature. Exploits ruin the game. As much as you might profess to not using them, it becomes extremely tempting to use them unfairly in the heat of battle and I would just rather they werent there.

And the things your asking the AI to do, such as somehow calculate the risk that you as a human player will try to exploit them is really un-doable I think.

Its like Civ2 with its ridiculous cheat mode, that ruined that game for me, even though Im the sort of person that loathes cheating and never play online games like counterstrike for that reason I still found it incredible tempting to enable cheat mode to take back that capital city I just lost.

[Tiberius]

An exploit is only an exploit if you use it. If not, it's not an exploit anymore.

We are exploiting the AI one way or another anyway, because he's not thinking. One cannot remove from the game all tasks the AI cannot handle properly, because you'd have to remove the AI almost altogether.

So, if using an exploit makes someone happy, he should be able to use it as long as he's not doing harm to anyone. Removing a possible exploit which otherwise would make the game more interesting for others seems a move which doesn't help anyone.

Just my 2 cents.

PS Btw, did you exploit the AI in civ3 with these kind of deals? I didn't. Besides you can "teach" the AI to never do such trades with a trade breaker.

[quinalla]

The only thing I miss is being able to mix trades up more, trading resources for a certain amount of turns for a flat gold sum and the like. Other than that, I think the diplomacy is far improved from Civ3. If the AI likes you or even if they are just neutral they will offer and accept fair trades. They will help you sometimes or give into your demands. They come to me with tons of trade offers. They won't trade techs if they don't like you or they are building a wonder or spaceship part and want to stay ahead.

And being able to see the + and - is great, at least I know what I can do to if I choose to make things better.

[Hayden]

Well why have diplomacy at all then. Why not just allow us as the humans players to take as much money and technology from our rivals as we want. That shouldnt be a problem because that wouldn't count as an exploit if you chose not to use it.

[Tiberius]

Very nice logic. I applaud you.

Following your logic, let me ask you something: do you actually fight with your units or do you just run an excel sheet with numbers and formulas? Because this is what combat is.

Ever heard the word: "playing" ?

[Pickles78uk]

well i know i said that i didnt enjoy the diplomacy as much this time round but...

i have just played a game on a standard world with continents and 3 other civs on prince level. I had decided right from the start i wanted to win via space race...and i did!

But the point im trying to make was that it was so exciting...the other civs were just as advanced as me and it was a real space race, something i havent experienced since civ 1 on the really hard levels. They were right bastards with tech trades and so was i back to them! but it was much more fun than one of my usuall civ 3 games where i would either complete the spaceship before the others had even started or wiped them all out with modern armours...

i love this game so much and the diplomacy is certainly much more exciting than in civ 3. Plus you cant get what you want no matter how much gold you threw at the other civ.

In Civ 3 some times (game depending) i went 100% tax and bought and sold techs from the other civs. I would buy one from the guy who discovered it first and then make my money back by selling it to all the other civs. Then when i had modern armour i would buy a **** large amry and navy and airforce and go and kick the **** out of the plannet. It was good fun but you cant do that in Civ 4

ITS SO COOL!!!

just my 2 cents too!