Diplomacy Sucks

[-Ab-]

i have played a few games of civ 4 now and mostly i like it,but one this that really bugs me is the awful diplomacy
Im playing on monarch lvl and the ai is constantly offering me stupid or unfair tech exchanges or worse begging for techs and then getting upset when i refuse to give away my newly reseached tech (the one that just keeps me in the race)
Anyways,i met the germans early in the game and converted them to hindu,as i founded it and i have looked after them pretty much from the start with free techs and gifts and now they are doing pretty good
so i got to chat with them and all the techs they have are red wtf? "we dont want to start trading this tech" even tho the techs i have to offer are way better and it would be in their best interest to swop me a couple of crap ones for my good ones
So the game goes on for a while and then they come to me asking for a defensive pact...ok i think why not... with a view to perhaps a permanent alliance in the long term
some time later the incas decide to start a war on me cause i wont give them stuff
the little message box goes....
"Bismark has cancelled our defensive pact"
"whoever has decalred war"

hmmmmm
things that remind me im playing against 1 computer player and not 8 AIs upset me
the diplomacy system in this game seems totally pointless to me as the other players will take take take but will give nothing
even when you supposedly like you +10 or more they refuse sensible trades and you certainly aint getting a freebee
it seems to be the only way to play really is just refuse all trades unless your going to "release" a tech to all
Why cant you mix trades aswell ? you cant sweeten the deal with say 20 or 50 turns of coal ? you can ask the AI for gold per turn but the option to offer gold per turn seems to be missing for me,bug?

The diplomacy needs ALOT of work in any patches that migth be comming

[Solver]

Defensive pacts... they work that way, if you sign it with someone, then the pact gets cancelled once there's a declaration of war. If war is declared against you, then your pact partner also declares war against the enemy.

Unlike Civ3, you can not expect to get everyone to like you with gifts in Civ4. In Civ3, bribing was extremely easy. Give a civ techs or gold now and then, they'll love you. Not so in Civ4. If you want a trading partner, you'll have to do something else.

The AIs, they also want to actually do something. This means that even your partners might refuse to trade you crucial techs. However, if you do get Pleased or better relations with a civ, you will be able to get fair trades much of the time.

The deals are also in two categories - annual (gold per turn, resources, agreements) and immediate (techs, lump sump of gold, declarations of war, conversions). You can't mix the two. Why/ To prevent the infamous exploit where you can get some techs for GPT/resources, and then declare war on sever your connection so as not to pay your part of the deal.

[-Ab-]

Yeah i know how the pact was meant to work
however it was just end of pact we arnt helping no war dec

About teh gold thing
I have teh option to ask for gpt eg clam for gold
but for some reason i cant offer gpt - for anything
it just doesnt appear on my side of the screen

As far as tech trades go i think the AI needs to start taking into account its own self interest and not holding out on you because your getting too close to taking teh lead
Its a good thing that you cant just gift and they love you but when you got somebody who like you +12 -1 our boarders are close,well you expect something better than just same old same old
I know certain nations have different personalitys (like the Japanese who just refuse to trade with anybody as far as i can tell) and i like the fact that you can give tech to 1 and it wont belong to everybody next turn,but the way the AI behaves is tiresome and you end up just refusing to share techs and playing the tech race for all you can - and that is just liek every other civ game
I find myself wishing i could block certain nations from initiating diplomacy cause i get tired of their begging an offering me completely worthless trades
If they would trade sensibly with me i might be more inclined to share my best techs but they dont

Not so in Civ4. If you want a trading partner, you'll have to do something else.

if you know how to make another nation play co operatively and be trustworthy please tell

[Kristjan]

Originally posted by Solver
The deals are also in two categories - annual (gold per turn, resources, agreements) and immediate (techs, lump sump of gold, declarations of war, conversions). You can't mix the two. Why/ To prevent the infamous exploit where you can get some techs for GPT/resources, and then declare war on sever your connection so as not to pay your part of the deal.

That exploit should have been taken care of differently. Actually it is only realistic. I can make gold/turn agreement, I can cancel it by the price of good relations. The life was never meant to be just

The cost of following war should act as deterrent here, not just some bit of GUI engineering.

[snepp]

Here's a diplomacy attitude annoyance.

Myself, America, and Mali are all friendly with each other. I've got a +12 with one, and a rediculous +17 with the other. Anyway, America and Mali sign a defensive pact. Wanting to keep my massive friendship going for potential UN votes, I decide to sign a defensive pact of my own with Mali. What does America think of this? I get a negative attitude hit because, "You signed a defensive pact with our worst enemy!"

Mind you that the relationship between America and Mali was +11 before they signed their pact, and +13 after, with no negative marks at any time. Hardly qualifies as worst enemies.

[Solver]

Yeah i know how the pact was meant to work
however it was just end of pact we arnt helping no war dec

You mean Bismarck didn't declare war? Weird.

About teh gold thing
I have teh option to ask for gpt eg clam for gold
but for some reason i cant offer gpt - for anything
it just doesnt appear on my side of the screen

Do you have positive GPT? If you do, the option should appear and you should be able to buy resources for GPT.

if you know how to make another nation play co operatively and be trustworthy please tell

With very few exceptions, Pleased AIs have been cooperative with me. Especially if I got some tech that they didn't have, they would be quite happy to trade some of their techs to me. I also start trading resources with them as soon as I can and then I generally end up with a good ally for the rest of the game.

That exploit should have been taken care of differently. Actually it is only realistic. I can make gold/turn agreement, I can cancel it by the price of good relations. The life was never meant to be just

In Civ3, it didn't exactly work like that. You would cancel the deal, yes, your relations would drop, and then you could gift them your world map ten turns in a row and they'd love you again. Everyone has different preferences, but I'm glad to see exploits like that to the diplomacy shut down.

[Solver]

Originally posted by snepp
Here's a diplomacy attitude annoyance.

Myself, America, and Mali are all friendly with each other. I've got a +12 with one, and a rediculous +17 with the other. Anyway, America and Mali sign a defensive pact. Wanting to keep my massive friendship going for potential UN votes, I decide to sign a defensive pact of my own with Mali. What does America think of this? I get a negative attitude hit because, "You signed a defensive pact with our worst enemy!"

Mind you that the relationship between America and Mali was +11 before they signed their pact, and +13 after, with no negative marks at any time. Hardly qualifies as worst enemies.

It's actually signed defensive pact with "rivals", not "worst enemy". Yes, the AIs get quite upset at that, but it's a mechanism to prevent you, yet again, from being friends with everyone too easily. However, in a situation such as this, you should be able, in some 7-10 turns, to sign a second Defensive Pact with America and get both happy.

[Kristjan]

Originally posted by Solver
In Civ3, it didn't exactly work like that. You would cancel the deal, yes, your relations would drop, and then you could gift them your world map ten turns in a row and they'd love you again.

Well, you described very well the real problem that had to be solved. It was the ridiculous way to improve relations in civ3, NOT cancelling gpt deal itself.

[Solver]

That's two separate problems. One problem is that you could get techs for FREE - buy for GPT and break the deal next turn. Another problem is that no matter how bad your relations were (because you broke a deal or anything else), you could improve them easily when you wanted to.

[WolfEyes]

You can't mix the two. Why/ To prevent the infamous exploit where you can get some techs for GPT/resources, and then declare war on sever your connection so as not to pay your part of the deal.

So why not just follow SMAC's lead instead? Loans (money per turn) were suspended (not cancelled) during war and reinstated once peace/ceasefire had been declared.

Also, personally I think it SHOULD be possible to be friends with everyone, maybe not easily, but I think it should be possible, especially if you happen to be the strongest civ.

[Kristjan]

Originally posted by Solver
That's two separate problems. One problem is that you could get techs for FREE - buy for GPT and break the deal next turn. Another problem is that no matter how bad your relations were (because you broke a deal or anything else), you could improve them easily when you wanted to.

I cannot see your point here. I DO NOT get techs free - I get them for the cost of war. And it ought to be greater than gpt, assuming that I am dealing with a more advanced nation.

The fact that I can improve my relations with other civs in many silly ways and make them all to attack my former partner makes that cost of war very low and getting new tech virtually free.

[Solver]

Just never sign peace then. The Civ3 AI would also be quite happy to ruin its economy that way - especially if it's on a different continent. The SMAC way was elegant, though.

Friends with everyone... well, actually, you sometimes can do that. Not really friends maybe, but it's possible to have no one hating you too much. Like in a game with 6 AIs, I've done that. Islands is the easiest map for that. However, show me a real historical example of a country loved by everyone .

[Solver]

I cannot see your point here. I DO NOT get techs free - I get them for the cost of war. And it ought to be greater than gpt, assuming that I am dealing with a more advanced nation.

One way to get them completely for free was to offer resources in exchange and then sever the roads.

However, in Civ3, the cost of war was nearly nothing, especially in the late game. You could easily defend against any incoming attack because of an inadequate attack AI and infinite rails, if the AI happened to be on another continent, the most threat it would pose would be a few units, and the AIs happily ruined their own economy by forgetting infrastructure if you were at war.

[Julinoleum]

[SIZE=1] However, show me a real historical example of a country loved by everyone .

The closest to that would be swiss I guess, but even in this case...

[Kristjan]

Originally posted by Solver
However, show me a real historical example of a country loved by everyone .

Island? Finland after 1953? Schwitzerland after Congress of Vienna?

Monaco is probably the best example Everyone would like to have some fun there.

But the cases are rare of course.