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  • Hatshepsut, Standard Terra. Help? :(

    Terra map, standard sized
    Hatshepsut

    My first city, I moved my settler across the river to have better access to hammer tiles later, founding Aurora on the first turn. After calculating times-to-finish, I determined that I'll found my second city earlier by not waiting to get to pop 2. So, following Vel's advice, I went straight to producing a Settler. The tiles being worked were all flood plains, so settler #1 would be built in 25 turns.

    My warrior had extreme luck with the 4 huts I managed to pop before the AI scouts overran the continent: Map on the first, gold on the second, Hunting and Animal Husbandry (!) on the last two. This was extremely lucky for me as I was forgoing those useful techs to grab all three early religions.

    My second city, Solaria, I founded on a bottleneck to my south, limiting (for a while) Mao's expansion. My second settler was almost finished when Louis settled a beautiful fresh water tile on the coast, downriver only 5 tiles from my capital. That city also grabbed the only copper resource in my quarter of the continent.

    Solaria built a Barracks first, and became my city specialized for defensive unit construction.

    The early city and religion gambit paid off, however. I founded Buddhism, Hinduism, and Judaism (that last shortly after settling Solaria).

    My other neighbors were Tokaguwa to the north east, who was on the other side of... Genghis Khan, my neighbor immeidately to the north. Doh! My north-west neighbor is Cyrus, and as I mentioned Louis is immediately to my west, clearly on "my" land. My southern border, on the other side of Solaria's isthmus, is Mao.

    Elsewhere somewhere out there are Catherine and Alexander, west of Cyrus and Louis I expect.

    For my third city, Atlantis, I sent my settler south-east, sheltered away from the other civs, taking out a stack of barbarians roaming nearby. They would be the last barbarians I would see as nearly the entire continent would be settled shortly thereafter. Tokaguwa settles the remainder of the peninsula with a single city south-east of Atlantis.

    This was perhaps not so bad, since in my first Noble level game, relentless Barbarian attacks hindered my infrastructure building and gave Bismark a good opportunity to take my second (copper) city. I abandoned that game, but it looks like the situation isn't much better in this one.

    I built Atlantis to have access to Ivory and a second seaport town. As luck would have it, I would find out that Iron would appear on the nearby hill. But not early enough to do me any good.

    At this point, Loius declares war on me. He sent a single Archer into my territory towards Solaria. It takes so long to get to me that I manage to build a War Chariot in time to take it out (Solaria has pretty good production, and will have Dyes and Gems coming in if I manage to get a worker down there).

    I can build Archers and War Chariots (and Warriors, not that those are any good). I build two War Chariots, an extra Archer, and send out a Warrior as well. This task force meets up on the hill just east of Orleans. By the time I get this group organized, an Axeman emerges from the city and starts waltzing towards my capital, defended by a single archer. I start building Walls there.

    Clearly, this war needs to end fast. My first counter-aggression is to destroy the mine on the Copper resource. That axeman is the only one Louis is going to get, and fortunately he doesn't use it to weaken my attack force.

    Orleans is defended by two archers, both with +strength. Once my chariot gets back from his copper adventure, I begin my attempt to capture Orleans.

    My first chariot attack is victorious, taking down one archer. I send in a warrior to soften up the remaining archer, and he somehow manages to take out a HP before being destroyed. Unfortunately, my follow-up attack with my other Chariot is unsuccessful, leaving the defending archer with 1 HP. With fingers crossed, I send in my own archer, and Orleans is mine!

    I rename the city Antilla and send a worker over to get the copper resource up and running. I ask Louis for peace, and he accepts.

    In the mean time, I flip between Buddhism and No State Religion, trying desperately to keep a production bonus while also keeping the other civs from getting too iritated with me. Genghis had already attacked the Persians and asked me for help... which I had to refuse. Eventually, all my neighbors except Louis convert to Buddhism -- even Genghis -- so I go back and stay with Buddhism, hoping to score enough good points with the Mongols to keep him off my back.

    I have a few turns of peace, trying to get my bounty of resources connected.

    Genghis cancels Open Borders with me... and I get worried.

    Two turns later, the point at which I saved and quit for the night, he declares war and sends three Keshyks across the border. I tried to appease him with cows and other health stuff I could spare... but he just let those deals cancel with the war declaration.

    I have three chariots, five archers, two warriors, one axeman, and one spearman, spread out among four cities, and two workers busy getting things connected. My capital has Walls, an Archer, and an Axeman, and it looks like it's Ghengis's first target. It also has the Buddhism shrine, which is the only reason I'm able to run science at 100% (I was -13 with science at 100% before then :O).

    I'm not on good enough terms with Japan to even get open borders, let alone get him on my side against Khan. Khan and I share religions, as do all my immediate neighbors. However, we're all still at Cautious due to the tight borders.

    I have no idea what I'm going to be able to do to hold on to Aurora when I pick the game back up tonight.



    Help please? I had such a great start on this game that I don't want to give up just because Genghis is being a complete jerk. I don't know if I'll be able to survive if he manages to take my capital.

    Aurora*: 1 Archer, 1 Axeman, Walls
    Solaria: 5 tiles S of capital, 2 Archers, Horses connected
    Atlantis: 5 tiles SE of capital, 1 Archer, 1 Spearman, iron connected
    Antilla: 5 tiles SW of capital, 1 War Chariot, 1 Archer, copper connected
    Last edited by duodecimal; November 4, 2005, 09:35.

  • #2
    Since he has Keshyks, your best defense is to use spearmen, since they get a hefty bonus against mounted units. Unfortunately, as a peaceful builder, you will have to stomach him destroying your infrastructure for few turns, while trying to get as many spearmen in your border cities as possible (pop-rush with slavery if possible or viable; also if you have theocracy or vassalage, pick them up too for extra xp for those units - as spiritual you wont have anarchy to worry about).

    Eventually, he will start attacking you. With spearmen, you should be able to defeat him, especially as your units will get more and more experience as they destroy enemy units.

    Then, when it seems he got enough, propose a peace treaty to him, rebuild infrastructure and try to get pikemen, so you get the ultimate defense against his keshyks getting uppity in future. In the meantime, try if you can to get him become the same religion as you - this will make him more friendly, at which point you can just point him in direction of your enemies.
    The problem with leadership is inevitably: Who will play God?
    - Frank Herbert

    Comment


    • #3
      How long does it take the religion bonus to show up? He and I are both Buddhists, but I don't see a "+1 for our brothers of the faith" in his diplo screen.

      All my cities are border cities.

      As long as he sticks to razing improvements, I might have a chance... I'll just hope he doesn't disconnect both my Iron and my Copper, as I'll need one or the other to make spearmen. I'll switch all cities to start building them.

      It's still so early in the game that I haven't yet discovered the techs granting Slavery and Vassalage. I think I'm around ... 200-300 AD (it's hard to tell because the clock doesn't share UI space well with the date).

      I was really, really peeved that our shared religion didn't even matter to him. I also thought I had quite a sizable military, but apparently I'm #6 (in terms of the population figure, my 80,000 'soldiers' is about 10% below average). I'm guessing my juicy weakness was too much a temptation for that slavering barbarian to ignore. Louis is the first time I've followed through on an early war as well -- being a peaceful builder is too strongly ingrained in my play style that (as the Bismark example showed) I tend to either reload or start over if I'm forced into warfare.

      I'm finding out that I won't have much choice on Terra maps when it comes to avoiding war, at least on the "standard" size with 7 opponents. I've gotten to 1800 on a Huge terra map and never once got forced into a war. Also played that one with no barbarians. Unfortunately, Huge gets bogged down a bit too much in terms of management, the sheer number of cities and tiles to manage.

      Comment


      • #4
        Are you sure you both have Buddism as state religion? Having it in your cities is not enough - you need to have it as your state one (you can change it in the religions screen).

        As for Slavery and Vassalage, while you may still be too early to get Vassalage, Slavery is one of the first civics, available with Bronze Working, so I would be really surprised if you didn't have it (especially as you have Copper in your civ).

        I have noticed the AI normally starts by plundering and only goes for cities a few turns after the invasion starts. If he doesn't cut off your iron you should be able to pull it off, I think. Does any of your cities have walls or barracks?
        The problem with leadership is inevitably: Who will play God?
        - Frank Herbert

        Comment


        • #5
          Ah, I probably do have Slavery then. I keep forgetting to keep updated on what civics I have available, even though I should know better by now with this being my fourth game. I usually tinker with them most in mid-to-late game.

          As for religions, Louis is Hindu and Alexander is Jewish. All the rest are Buddhists, except for one who hasn't converted to anything yet.

          I also typed all that from memory, so there's some details I'm probably leaving out.

          My capital does not have barracks, but it is the only city with Walls. Solaria and Atlantis (I think) both have barracks, and they're the ones producing my units. I've only had Antilla (old Orleans) for about a dozen turns.

          Solaria, with the help of some chopped trees, finished the Oracle, which is what got me Iron Working.

          Aurora and Solaria are both busy building Wonders -- the Pyramids and Parthenon, respectively. I have to hammer it into my skull that I won't lose that production if I switch them to build something else for a handful of turns. Way too ingrained with Civ II / Civ III.

          I'll be home for my lunch break, and I'll post some screens to illustrate my opening post.

          Comment


          • #6
            My empire the turn Khan declared war, click for full resolution:



            Khan is not playing around. He's already assaulted my capital, as shown by the weakend forces remaining in the edited shot below. My axeman unit was taken out, and I hurried the one being built on the next turn. The forces to the west are two Keshyks and two axemen. The forces to the north-east are two axemen and two spearmen. I already took out three keshyks and one axeman.



            He has also landed two chariots next to Atlantis, the south-eastern city, from a ship he sailed around Japan's city on the peninsula (visible north of the Japanese city of Edo at the eastern border, in the war declaration screenshot). I've gotten Tokaguwa buttered up a bit, but there's nothing I can offer him to go to war with Genghis -- but it's not red, so there's a chance.
            Last edited by duodecimal; November 4, 2005, 13:11.

            Comment


            • #7
              Produce as many spearmen as you can. If you can rush them then great. Do so.

              If you can put a spearman on your iron/copper. Do that. The AI will go for them. And remember, spearmen are not just for defense. If you see a mounted unit, attack with the spearmen.

              Comment


              • #8
                I will try that. The city with the copper is rushing a Swordsman right now.

                I already rushed 4 spearmen, one in each city, and sent one from Atlantis to Aurora -- using the war chariot to take out an axeman that had come down to pillage the farm between those two cities so the spearman would have a cleared route.

                That screenshot is where I left the game after playing a few turns during lunch. 8 attackers vs. 6 defenders aren't bad odds for me... at least, I never managed to take a city with just a 33% numbers advantage. Unfortunately, I haven't memorized all the promotion icons just yet so I can't tell how easily those eight units can smack down the defenders of Aurora.

                He only has two keshyks left in my territory, so that's why I'm rushing an axeman in the capital. If Khan recklessly throws those spearmen/axemen against my walled city from the other side of the river -- which he did with two of his three keshyks on the prior turn -- I stand a good chance of wiping out 80% of his attack force, leaving just those two chariots down by Atlantis.

                By then he might be in the mood to talk... if not, I think I'll take Old Sarai off his hands. He's got two archers defending that town, no different than Orleans did when I took it from Louis.

                That ought to learn him good to try the patience of a builder.

                Or he'll take my capital on the next turn. Whichever.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Looking at your forces, your capital should hold. He does not have any catapults yet Right? And from my experience taking a city or two is a great way to get them to talk. Good luck looks like you are having a fun fight.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    No good. I managed to take out the two chariots by Atlantis with the two spearmen I had stationed down there... but the attacks against Aurora were relentless:



                    Japan still won't go to war, Khan still won't talk to me, and no one else wants anything to do with me. What a waste of a beautiful start.

                    This just utterly cheeses me off.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Here are my saves collection for that run:

                      Auroran Empire

                      Noble difficulty level. It is a very nice start - copper, iron nearby, lots of luxury goods. You guys that play on Lord High Muckety-muck ought to have no troubles whatsoever.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Ok, duodecimal I reloaded you game, Warfare1 and was able to save Aurora fairly easily.

                        First of all I see you just researched theology and then went for currency. You are under attack! You don't have time to build up econ, you need military units, military techs and military civics right now. Going straight for calendar was a poor choice, you don't gain much from it(I know your rares need it but those can wait) and skimped on military prereq techs and are now in trouble. Also, building the Parthenon? Bad wonder in my opinion, there is a national wonder that gives +100% great person production to one city and that is plenty.

                        OK, back to what I did from your saved game:
                        -Went to Antilla, changed citizens to work on those 1 food 2 hammer forest tiles, gives the city no growth but you can pump out a axeman in 4 turns! Changed production from Swordsman to Axeman. Enemy army consists mainly of cavalry and axemen, axemen counter swordmen so build swordsmen is a bad idea.
                        - Took chariot and axeman out of Antilla and moved it towards the enemy. War chariot suicided against one of the keshiks(sic)
                        -Went to Aurora. Change production to an axeman, rushed it so it would be built now.
                        -Moved War Chariot into aurora
                        -Went to Solara, took out archer and spearman, changed production in Solara to a Spearman, moved 1 citizen to a scientist, moved another to a 1 food 2 production tile.
                        -Set tech rate to 100%, change technology to Monarchy(no it can't wait) After Monarchy, go for Feudalism.

                        Next Turn:
                        -Promotions from defenders of Aurora come up, for axeman pick the +25% melee, for spearman/warchariots pick the +10 % strength, for archers pick the city defense upgrade. Click fortify on any axemen or archer that wants orders in Aurora.
                        -Move other troos closer to aurora
                        -Take the 2 spearmen and crush those 2 cavalry(free exp yay!)
                        -Mine near Atlantis is a lost cause to more cavalry/axeman coming in. Other mine near Antilla got raided too. So keep your workers in those cities and mine them right away. Put a spearman fortified on that iron mine near antilla. If you need to build something without iron, make archers.

                        Next Turn:
                        -Ok I got sloppy and left my workers out and let a axeman wreck some havok. Eventually I got my buff axeman (2 str promotions) and another axeman as back up and killed him.
                        - Aurora is safe, move the troops you brought up from Solara and put them in atlantis.
                        -Send victorious axeman/spearman from the aurora battle to the mountain iron tile near Atlantis, fortify them there.
                        -Keep making spearmen, axemen or a worker.

                        Mant turns later:
                        -Genghis ran out of gas after that initial flurry, he made a weak attack at atlantis and then raided with another horse or two.
                        -2 turns away from Feudalism, saw Genghis was +5 with religion of the faith, asked him for peace, he said cool beans.
                        -Finish Feudalism, then finish theology and then continue play.

                        Notes: Lots of units without promotions and this realllly hurt. You need a barracks in most cities, or make a few cities be troop factories. Genghis is agressive and starts with a 10% str promotion, which means his troops usually get that and the first normal promotion so get +20% strength right off the bat! I like to play a heavy religion strategy too, but really it isn't worth it to grab all those religions, you leave yourself too vulnerable to the mongols, hehe.

                        Finally, that mf'er Cyrus refused to help or even stop trading with Genghis Kahn(which would've stopped a lot of raiding) Oh boy I sure hope you "thank" him later on.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Holy crap!

                          That chariot suicide run against the Keshyk decided the entire war. The way I ran it, the Keshyk managed to do enough damage that I lost a defender... and that set off a domino effect that took down all my remaining defenders.

                          Instead, the keshyk was taken out since it was weakened, and it in turn didn't do enough damage to my spearman to cause him to fall under the next attack.

                          Thanks to the reinforcements from Solaria and Antilla (keeping my fingers crossed about Loius not deciding to take back what was once his), there's a full-strength army in Aurora now, nearly all with promotions.

                          He may be willing to talk about peace in a few turns, but I'll see about taking Old Sarai just to make Khan pay for it.

                          Cyrus I'll try to cultivate as an ally. I'll be having issues with Greece, and he's already gone to war with Alexander.

                          I'm now a turn past where Aurora fell in my first attempt, so I'm through the worst of it. I'll be keeping a token Spearman border gaurd for the attacks you warned me about, but the rest will invade Mongolia. He'll rush back to the table a bit faster. Plus I'd like another seaport anyhow.

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                          • #14
                            It is done.



                            The downside of diverting a large force to Old Sarai was letting a Keshyk and a couple axemen raid the countryside freely.

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