Civ3 vs. Civ4 World Size - How different?

[AEdwild]

Been playing all incarnations of Civ since the first back in 1991... and am really enjoying Civ4.

I have one question and it is not an issue -- just a comparison.

Are the world sizes between Civ3 and Civ4 comparable? Is a Huge Civ3 world the same size as a Huge Civ4 world? If not, how much of a difference (i.e. 50% of the size, etc.)?

I am getting the feeling that the Civ3 worlds are much larger at each size category but don't know if it just my faulty memory.

Thanks!

[Solver]

I have no numbers right now, but there's one crucial difference - Civ3 had isometric grids, Civ4 doesn't. A 100x100 map in Civ4 has 10000 tiles. In Civ3, it would have less than that, bug again, someone else would need to say how many.

[Sirian]

You can't compare the grids directly. Civ4 grids are a normal rectangle, but Civ3 grids were running along the diagonals.

Civ3 Grids:
(Duel did not exist - N/A)
60*60 - Tiny
80*80- Small
100*100 - Standard
130*130 - Large
160*160 - Huge

HOWEVER, due to the odd math of the diagonal grids, you have to multiply the two dimensions then divide by two to get the total number of plots.

Compare to the stars on a USA flag, whose "grid dimensions" by Civ3 terms would be 11*9. That equals 99, but in reality there are 50 stars. (99/2)


Civ4 Grids have no odd math. Multiply the width times height for total plots.


Civ3 maps - plot count:
(Duel did not exist - N/A)
1800 - Tiny
3200 - Small
5000 - Standard
8450 - Large
12800 - Huge

Civ4 oceanic maps - plot count:
960 - Duel
1664 - Tiny (But has three civs default instead of four)
2560 - Small (But has five civs instead of six)
4368 - Standard (Seven civs instead of eight)
6656 - Large (Nine civs instead of twelve)
10240 - Huge (Eleven civs instead of sixteen)

So as you can see, the actual sizes -are- smaller, but the per-civ amount of land area is not. In most cases, it's larger. You can add or subtract civs to your desire, though. (In Civ3, you could subtract, but not add beyond the cap without modding).

The per-civ number is the real deal. That's the one that determines how much land will tend to be available. Like in Civ3, you can affect this by raising or lowering the sea level.

The Terra map is the only one out of the box that is BIGGER than the Civ3 equivalents.

TERRA map - Civ4 - plot totals:
1664 - Duel - 832/civ!
2560 - Tiny - 853/civ!
4368 - Small - 873/civ!
6656 - Standard - 950/civ!
10240 - Large - 1137/civ!
14592 - Huge - 1326/civ!


So here is the raw data for Huge maps

Civ3 - 12800 total - 800/civ for 16 civs
Civ4 - 10240 total - 931/civ for 11 civs
Terra - 14592 total - 1326/civ for 11 civs

You could run a Terra map with EIGHTEEN civs and still have more plots per civ in the world than you did with a huge Civ3 map with max (16) civs.


If players crave huge maps, they have them. Folks can make more maps like Terra if they want.


But here's the real rub. That "plots per civ" stat can be misleading. This is on worlds with mostly ocean. The actual number of usable plots in Civ3 was a lot less, and so it is in Civ4 on ocean.


The land-heavy maps have little water on them. They are a different ball of wax.

A Huge Civ3 map has 12800 total plots, but at 70% water, that is only 3840 land plots! A huge Highlands map in Civ4 has over 6000 land plots. The 3840 land plots on a Civ3 huge map would be divided between sixteen civs. The 6000 land plots for Highlands in Civ4 is divided by only eleven civs, unless you add more.

So the land per civ in Civ3 "Huge" is 240/civ, not counting coastal waters.
Highlands land per civ in Civ4 "Huge" is 545/civ!


OK? Does that put this issue to bed for keeps? I could BARELY CONTAIN MYSELF from violating my confidentiality agreement when I was stuck sitting there watching the rumor mill churn on this issue. Barry Caudill's remarks were not inaccurate, but they were pulled out of context. Some map types in Civ4 -are- smaller, but some are bigger - WAY WAY bigger in actual game balance terms. Way bigger.

I don't want to hear any more gripes about "smaller" map sizes. Truly I do not! Just talk to the hand on that one. Or better yet, check out the map guide and play some games on the options that allow for empires of sizes undreamt of in Civ3.

Modders can script new map types and do pretty much anything with them, including maps that would make Terra look like a shrimp. Of course, you might need to network a few mainframes to play an absurdly gargantuan map, but you can try it. If you can live with the performance level you get, then have at it!


The idea that players are "stuck" on "smaller maps" is completely unfounded!

And just as Terra is the playground for "I want huge enormous SP games", Team Battleground is the playground for "I want to play MP games in a sardine can and get right in to the action!"

You can have what you want in Civ4.


Happy Civving!


- Sirian

[Solver]

In other words: never, never let Sirian hear a question about maps, or else you can't stop the endless flow of musings .

[AEdwild]

Sirian,

That answer far exceeded my expectations! Thank you for such a well-spoken, well crafted response.

Size was not an issue here (although it does matter) -- I was just curious as to how they compared. And now that curiousity has been satisfied. Thank you again!

AEd

[GeoModder]

I guess that covers the... basics!

[Soren Johnson]

I think a few people might be judging the size of the world based on their minimap... keep in mind that the minimap doesn't scale to its full size til you discover Calendar. Until then, your minimap will appear much smaller than the actual world.

[Sirian]

Originally posted by Solver
In other words: never, never let Sirian hear a question about maps, or else you can't stop the endless flow of musings .

Solver's going to try to write that on my tombstone.

(I think he also plans to have a taped recording of a voice interview, which he will play over loudspeaker at any mention of the word "map" during my funeral.)




- Sirian

[Solver]

[bstamenov]

Sirian,

You are wrong. The number of plots in isometric grid is DOUBLE of what the perpendicular measurements says, not HALF.
CIV4 maps huge map (oceanic) for example will be close to 20% of the size of CIV3 huge map. This makes it of course easier to address the 10 minutes per turn problem in late game, and the decrease of the number of civs on the map is a pure necessity.

There is nothing odd about the mathematics; it is actually pretty simple high school stuff. Let’s make the exercise. Refer to a picture of an isometric grid in the location below.

http://mathforum.org/workshops/sum98/participants/sanders/IsomGrid.html

The isometric grid is built from equilateral triangles (all sides are equal) and their half’s. Lets say that the length of the side is equal to 1. One Civ 3 plot is made from 2 such triangles sharing a side.

The area of 1 civ plot is : 2*Area of triangle = 2* (sqrt(3)/4) = sqrt(3)/2
SizeOfPlot = sqrt(3)/2

Area of triangle = 0.5*1*sqrt(3)/2 , where sqrt(3)/2 is the altitude = 1*sin(60)


Now lets take a look of the perpendicular measurements of the map. Those are the numbers we refer to when saying 160x160 map. The vertical measurement is exactly equal to the side of the equilateral triangle, and the horizontal one is equal to double the altitude inside this triangle. So if we have a map with size AxB then the total area of the map will be:

Map Area = A*B*1* (2* (sqrt(3))/2) = A*B*sqrt(3)

From other perspective we have:

Map Area = N (Number of plots) * SizeOfPlot

A*B*sqrt(3) = N*sqrt(3)/2

N (Number of plots) = 2*A*B

This last formula is exactly what we need. For example : map 160x160 will have :2*160*160 = 51200 plots. If you don’t believe any formulas, try creating a small isometric grid and count by hand.

[AEdwild]

bstamenov,

Please simplify for those of us whose geometry lessons lie a few decades or so in the past (mine happened in 1981 in high school with apologies to Brother Mike on my failure to remember those lessons).

Your post left me confused while Sirian's spelled it all out in concrete numbers.

Thanks!

[bstamenov]

I think you can take the sentence below from the post. You don’t need to go in details if not inclined.

CIV4 maps huge map (oceanic) for example will be close to 20% of the size of CIV3 huge map.

[Solver]

A 160x160 map having 51200 plots doesn't make sense. A square map where the square size is 160 would have 25600 plots - an isometric grid can't have double the number of that.

[Hagbart]

Now im confused

[bstamenov]

Disregard my post, I just ran the CIV3 generator - what is 160x160 map, I count as 80x80. Sirian is correct.