What? No forest planting?

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

I don't see how the 'Forest-chop' would be as great an exploit in Civ4 as it was in Civ3 (even IF you couldn't do it for wonders). Why? Because of the need for Forests BEYOND their immediate HAMMER yield from chopping (Lumber Yard and Health Benefits).
I admit, though, that forest planting should be held off until maybe the middle ages-renaissance era, just to prevent it being 'exploited' in the really early part of the game. Oh and, I agree Tacit, that is a BEAUTIFUL solution-and probably do-able this time around !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Guynemer]

What about this as a work-around to the infinite chop:

Planting forests costs the same amount of hammers as chopping 'em down?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Odin
The flexible game engine better allow for new worker jobs to be modded in. How the hell did the guys at Firaxis forget TREE PLANTING if forests give health bonuses?

Maybe it was intentional, you know... early-game bonus versus late-game bonus.

[MattPilot]

Man.. i love TAcits idea. YOU DA MAN!

Now go mod it


On a side note.... I idea that it should only be available with environmentalism is a good one, however, it would be pointless.

Environmentalism gives such a big health bonus you won't need the health benefits from forests.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by MattPilot
On a side note.... I idea that it should only be available with environmentalism is a good one, however, it would be pointless.

Environmentalism gives such a big health bonus you won't need the health benefits from forests.

I don't see why the ability to plant trees should wait until environmentalism... It's not like reforestation is a terribly advanced concept only just discovered in the modern age.

Could someone please explain infinite chop?

[notyoueither]

Infinite chop? Or lumberjacking?

Civ3 vanilla. Have 8 or 12 workers on a tile. Some of them plant, *poof* trees! The others chop, *bang* 10 shields!

You could do that every turn on the same tile, or use less workers and take longer.

The result was the same, change gold (worker maint) into shields.

[Backpack]

Naah - It should cost 1/2 the benifit of shopping to plant (since your planting then waiting), but since we don't have a 'civics improvement' or whatever CTP called it to charge against, just make it take twice the effort to plant as it does to chop (maybe with no stacking) and let seeeeee, howsabout 20 turns to maturity

-----------------
Thoughts?

Backpack

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Civ3 vanilla. Have 8 or 12 workers on a tile. Some of them plant, *poof* trees! The others chop, *bang* 10 shields!

You could do that every turn on the same tile, or use less workers and take longer.

The result was the same, change gold (worker maint) into shields.

Ok, now I understand. Thx. However, with Tacit_Exit's suggestion to have newly planted trees mature into a forest over time, lumberjacking shouldn't be a useable exploit.

I would really like to see reforestation as an option for both aesthetic reasons and for the health bonus forest tiles provide.

[Grumbold]

I completely agree that losing the forest planting is an oversight if automated workers are going to chop them all down.

I'd suggest that the solution to the infinite forest chopping problem is to adopt the great leader approach: consume the unit to achieve the effect. You get an instant forest, but you lose the worker as they become permanent forestry commission employees (UK name, I'm sure every country has something similar.) Workers cost more than 30 shields so you're not gaining production by doing it.

[Gelondil]

If you check the "Automated workers leave existing improvements" button, the workers don't chop down your trees. No?

[proviisori]

Originally posted by chutney


Sure, but does it cover as much area as, say greater Seattle? (Forgive me if I'm wrong. We don't have too many trees where I grew up. ;-)

Planted forests really can cover that much area. When you look at projects of major international paper companies. Forest planting on large scale enables the paper consumption of the developed countries.

[Jubala]

And let's not forget about the reforestation act in Britain. They cut down pretty much every tree on the Island to build warships for their navy and became reliant on importing timber from the baltic sea region. I don't remember exactly when or what monarch ordered it, but there was a reforestation act issued that forbade the cutting of trees and ordered replanting in huge numbers. Britain now has forests again.

And in the early 19th century when the steam engined saw mills saw widespread us in northern Sweden pretty much every tree in northern Sweden was cut down for the navy and export. And in the late 16th early 17th century the Swedish King forbade the populace to cut down oaks since they where needed for the navy and ordered massive plantings of oaks for future use. Some where used to build the fully functioning replica eastindiaman Gothenburg.

I also seem to recall reading about cities throughout history that preserved and replanted forests to have a steady supply of fuel for cooking fires and such.

So I think having a forestation worker job is historically accurate, just not sure when it should become available. I like Tacits idea about having it work like the cottage improvement, question is what benefit the city should get from the tile until the forest reaches full maturity and how long that will take. And since the city has to work the tile as with a cottage improvement the actual plant forest action shouldn't take to long for the worker, 5 turns maybe? And the forest should be able to grow to full maturity of it's own if not worked so it's viable to plant a forest outside a city radius but inside borders.

[polarnomad]

Originally posted by Jubala
just not sure when it should become available.

Perhaps this could give some ideas:

In the Western world, formal forestry practices developed during the Middle Ages, when land was largely under the control of kings and barons. Control of the land included hunting rights, and though peasants in many places were permitted to gather firewood and building timber and to graze animals, hunting rights were retained by the nobility. Systematic management of forests for a sustainable yield of timber is said to have begun in the German states in the 16th century, and probably somewhat earlier in Japan. Typically, a forest was divided into specific sections and mapped; the harvest of timber was planned with an eye to regeneration.

and,

The earliest known instance of organized reforestation was in Germany in 1368

both taken from:

http://www.answers.com/topic/forestry

[Fried-Psitalon]

It was not an oversight. Read Kuciwalker's post again.

You chop early, you get a big bonus and the nothing. You save it for the late game, you get a small bonus now and a big bonus later.

Believe it or not, adding the ability to plant forests removes a big strategic decision, because you have to decide whether or not you want those forests way down the line as it stands now. If I have the ability to chop forests and then replant, there is one right answer: chop em all now, replant em all later.

That's silly. The main thrust of CIV is that there is NEVER one right answer. You want your forest to regrow? Leave another forest tile beside it, don't put a road through the deforested tile, and hope.

CIV is about careful decisions, not "perfect answer" schemes. Realism was sacrificed in this case for gameplay.

[Jubala]

Never suggested it was an oversight Fried, just wanted to inject some historical information. And you make a good point about the strategic decisions involved in chopping or not chopping. I still believe someone will mod in chopping pretty soon though. And I will most likely try it and see what difference it makes to the game. In the meantime though I'll just have to place my cities so there are foresttiles outside their radius forest can spread from in case I need it.