Preserve Random Seed?

[Cabbagemeister]

Oh, come on now...it's DEFINITELY cheating if you reload to do something different. Not that there's anything wrong with that, in a just-for-fun SP game--I do it all the time. Hey, if they didn't want me to cheat, they wouldn't have let that axeman beat my maceman! But it's obviously cheating.

By the way, it looks like the random seed for the results is preserved, but the random seed for graphical display is not. I reloaded a battle to try to achieve a different result, and my musketman lost to a longbowman again, but this time the left musketman died first, instead of the right.

[Grumbold]

We can philosophise about whether it is possible to cheat oneself for weeks just like we did when Civ 3 came out, but its not going anywhere. Some people derive most enjoyment from dealing with whichever way the dice fall, others don't have the time to play a dozen games to get a victory or the patience to deal with runs of bad luck, or just like to get the best result every time.

If people want to play "ironman" games where you can't save except when they quit, that's up to them. When I was a student I did that for Baldurs Gate 2, but I'd never do it again now. I have too much of a life away from my PC to do something like that again

[Venger]

The thing about the random seed generator is that you CAN use it to just as much an advantage - in fact more so. If you have major activity going on, and you know your first two unit attacks succeed, and the third fails, you can then tailor your units and targets accordingly.

Not getting the same result every time can less advantageous than knowing what it WILL BE EVERY TIME.

Think about it.

If you knew a coin flip was going to go head head tails head tails, you'd bet your mortgage on it.

If it was random, you'd be a fool to do it.

Venger

[Arnelos]

You're citing something that is all too well known in MP. It's one of the reasons why some competitive team games have required each team to submit turn logs to a neutral judge. If another team ever challenges whether your "luck" was REALLY just luck, the judge can just load up that save and use your log. Ideally, the judge can tell if you're doing quirky stuff with the RNG.

My favorite is that for SOME reason, the Civ3 RNG is tapped when you switch production to a wonder. When that was discovered, it lead to some people doing stuff like attacking with two units, switching a city to the Pyramids (to eat a bad die roll), then attacking with their third unit, etc.

So yeah, people are well aware of that issue. I have no idea idea what things other than combat eat die rolls in Civ4, but I'm sure it's an issue that will come back up.

[Yossi]

I've started using reload back in CIv I after my Battleship lost fight with Catapult. At that moment I have felt cheated, and I used reloading as a fail safe for such stupid battle results. Preserving random seed allows me to know the outcome of an attack before it happens, which leads to even more exploits then regular reloading.
I think they schould include back an the option to turn on/off preserving the seed. If some people dont like reloading, just dont use it, and dont tell me how to play my ( single player ) game.

[VetLegion]

Originally posted by Venger
The thing about the random seed generator is that you CAN use it to just as much an advantage - in fact more so. If you have major activity going on, and you know your first two unit attacks succeed, and the third fails, you can then tailor your units and targets accordingly.

Not getting the same result every time can less advantageous than knowing what it WILL BE EVERY TIME.

Think about it.

If you knew a coin flip was going to go head head tails head tails, you'd bet your mortgage on it.

If it was random, you'd be a fool to do it.

If the combat in Civ IV has it's own "random" number sequence/generator (unlike in Civ3 where, as Arnelos wrote, you could alter the sequence with some other actions too), then it is not advantageous to know it, if it is bad for you.

Consider that you are attacking a city with five knight units, and the luck has you losing four to a warrior, while one kills him.

Now that you know the sequence, what good does it do for your attack if you have no other available units to "spend" the bad rolls on?

Or consider that you are discovering a hut and have a bad roll.

What is the advantage from knowing it's a bad roll when you reload?

People wouldn't be whining about the fixed sequence if it was advantageous fro them

[Venger]

Remember, this isn't a true coin flip - not win lose, but rather a percentage weight to one side or the other. So, you either change the percentage by attacking a very weak unit with a very strong one, where it won't matter, or simply burn them with bombards, etc. Or just wait a turn. But if I know, like your example, that I will lose this turn, I will just wait until next turn.

If someone is going to reload to get different random results, they will surely reload to get different fixed ones!

Venger