Hm, the Romans had a sort of Freedom of Religion, but not possible in game now?

[H Tower]

I thought the Romans used Christians as lion bait in the colloseum

[Nikolai]

Several millions of people died in Rome's "freedom of religion", mostly Christians(in the 10(or was it 12?) large persecusions, aside from the minor, local ones). Rome acturally had a state religion, namely the worshipping of the Emperor, and only if you did worship him was you allowed to worship your own god(s) freely.

[Ninot]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Several millions of people died in Rome's "freedom of religion", mostly Christians(in the 10(or was it 12?) large persecusions, aside from the minor, local ones). Rome acturally had a state religion, namely the worshipping of the Emperor, and only if you did worship him was you allowed to worship your own god(s) freely.

Millions died, but not because of religion.

[Martinus]

But it is possible to have that in game. Here's how:

1. Choose Romans as your civilization.
2. Discover technology giving Freedom of Religion.
3. Switch to Freedom of Religion.

Voila.

Seriously, the modern concept of freedom of religion was not really present in ancient world (it's the same mistake as people make when saying ancient Greece was a democracy in modern meaning). Many religions in ancient Rome were outlawed or persecuted, and there was definitely a state religion (of Jove) and later worship of Ceasars. Romans did not *intervene* in religion as much as other nations and civilizations, but it certainly wasn't freedom of religion. In Civ4 terms they would fit into Organized Religion, imo.

[alva]

Does anyone know how many were around in Europe around the BC, AD changeover?
I always get a bit sceptical when such high numbers are used for that time period, actually that goes for the whole plague thing as well.

[alva]

I thought the Romans used Christians as lion bait in the colloseum

There is absolutely no proof of that (not saying it didn't happen, just that there is no proof of it).

[nbarclay]

Rome's attitude also changed depending on who was running the Empire at a given time.

[sophist]

Indeed. It's interesting to speculate how history might have been different had Emperor Julian not died after a reign of under 2 years in 363AD, as he was the first non-Christian Emperor after Constantine.

Rome might not have had freedom of religion in the modern sense, but they certainly had more religious tolerance than later Christian and Islamic nations.

[dearmad]

Yeah that Julian is interesting... but didn't he start going a little hog wild with some persecuting?

Guess I'll WIKI him.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by alva
Does anyone know how many were around in Europe around the BC, AD changeover?

IIRC 80 million in the Roman Empire?

[Stuie]

Originally posted by nbarclay
Rome's attitude also changed depending on who was running the Empire at a given time.

Since Caesar is provided, I think it's fair to use his attitude toward religion. Although he was Pontifex Maximus, his attitude seems to have been pretty secular. Religion was more a tool to be used for political purposes than something to follow slavishly.

[oriel94]

England has both a State religion (the Church of England) and religious freedom.

[Martinus]

Originally posted by oriel94
England has both a State religion (the Church of England) and religious freedom.

But in the meaning used in Civ4 it has freedom of religion, not a state religion. Similarly, it has universal suffrage, not hereditary monarchy, even though it has a Queen.

You guys are too stuck up on labels, instead of looking to the nature of a given government or concept.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

My understanding of the Romans and their relationship to other faiths was as follows:

The Romans had their 'Cult of Jupiter', which itself was just a rip-off of the Olympian Pantheon (the Decacameron?)
Anyways, they couldn't give a rats *ss what faiths the various conquered peoples followed, so long as they paid their taxes and obeyed Roman Law. Even Christianity-whilst it remained a Jewish sect with just a handful of cells in Greece and Palestine-was tolerated (though not overly trusted). However, when actual citizens of Rome began to convert to Christianity, then it became seen as a direct threat to the Roman Empire. The belief was that if sufficient Romans failed to pay homage to the Gods, that terrible things would befall. Such initial hysteria would almost certainly have died away, in time, except that emporers like Nero really enjoyed scapegoating local Christians to divert attention away from his own corrupt incompetence. This, unfortunately, became a tactic of future Emporers until the time of Constantine, when Christianity was adopted as the State religion. What is interesting, though, is that I don't believe that Greek or Palestinian Christians were ever specifically targetted during thos dark times-JUST Christians of Roman blood.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Nikolai
Several millions of people died in Rome's "freedom of religion", mostly Christians(in the 10(or was it 12?) large persecusions, aside from the minor, local ones). Rome acturally had a state religion, namely the worshipping of the Emperor, and only if you did worship him was you allowed to worship your own god(s) freely.

And yet pagan polytheistic Rome also had an 'Edict Of Toleration'- and as pointed out, they were tolerant of non-Roman religions (given that many of their gods were in fact versions of Celtic, Etruscan and Greek divinities, this in itself is hardly surprising) such as the Egyptian cults of Isis and Serapis, the Asian cults of Cybele and Mithras (particularly popular amongst soldiers, the latter) and of course Judaism.

When religion interfered in the political sphere, however, it could not be tolerated.

Of course, once Christians managed to get their hands on state power, they did exactly the same as the pagan Romans, and avidly persecuted fellow Christians and pagans.

Plus ca change....