New civics screen

[MarkG]

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Sorry, as much as I love the civics system (and I DO love the civic system), I think its a bit of a crock having options like Emancipation, Free Speech and Representation being such low upkeep-yet providing nothing but benefits. Either these options should have a downside (and they DO have downsides in real life) like increased War Weariness, Unit maintainance costs or City Upkeep costs-or simply by making them high maintainance (and, if you ask most politicians in democratic nations, I bet you they will say-off the record-that free speech and representation ARE high maintainance !)

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[MrFun]

Aussie, so mod it however you would like to have it after you buy Civ 4.

[Locutus]

Maybe the downside is that you don't get to use one of the high-upkeep Civics which have much more powerful effects? IIRC Serfdom allows you to rush with Gold and gives +50% Worker Speed. I'd much rather have that then Emancipation, no matter what the Upkeep Cost (well, assuming I could afford it). And I imagine that if you're at war you might prefer the Experience bonus of the Police State over Representation. Also, the examples you mention are presumably all late-game Civics, so you can't use them for very long. We don't even know all the effects yet and we haven't played the game so we certainly don't know how the overall gameplay is, so we can hardly judge if it's well balanced or not...

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Trust me, I will MrFun. It is just unfortunate that the Vanilla game seems to be displaying these inherent biases. IMO, there is no such thing as a PERFECT choice when it comes to governments. Being a ruthless dictator makes it easier to control your people, but at the cost of productivity (gold, science and hammers in Civ parlance), wheras being an open democracy makes your people happier and more productive, but makes it harder to go to war whenever you want. Also, as I said before, the latter tend to be higher maintainance than the other-and this should be represented in the Vanilla game, rather than making it a 'race to the best civic'.
Also, I wonder if that maintainance cost is at all effected by how many cities you have?? I certainly hope so.
Anyway, don't let my posts fool you-overall, I am loving the look of this game more and more-just have a few 'niggling' issues is all !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Darsnan]

Well from a SMAC(X) Mod perspective why this looks like good news, as we should be able to reproduce the SMAC(X) Social Engineering Matrix from the cIV Civics matrix.
Thanx for this screen, Markos!


D

[MrFun]

[SIZE=1] Originally posted by
Anyway, don't let my posts fool you-overall, I am loving the look of this game more and more-just have a few 'niggling' issues is all !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

I don't believe you. I think you're a rotten, disgruntled heretic. I'm going to ask the Inquisition to interrogate you.

[Fosse]

I am thrilled that choosing Empancipation gives non-emancipated civs a happiness penalty. I was hoping that there were real reasons to want other civs to choose particluar civics - unlike, say SMAC, where they want you to run a particluar SE setting "because." *

That's very cool.

*well, okay. It made good story line, but that wasn't what I was talking about.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Actually, I have found certain Social Engineering choices in SMAC to be worth switching to because (a) they boosted the existing bonuses enjoyed by the Faction I was playing or (b) they were useful for whatever I was doing at any given time. Still, it is nice to know that you CAN give negative effects, that are both Local AND Global, to civics options.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Martinus]

It could also be the case that this is a screenshot of civic choices of an Organized civilization, perhaps with wonders further reducing upkeep of some civics, thus the low values.

If it is vanilla though, this disables my theory that Organized is good for cultural victory. Philosophical Creative of Frederick is the way to go, then.

[Adagio]

I liked the older civics screen better, this one looks boring

[MarkG]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
I think its a bit of a crock having options like Emancipation, Free Speech and Representation being such low upkeep-yet providing nothing but benefits.

the reviewer was probably playing on chieftain, and that's why there is a low upkeep

in another screenshot he had a surplus of 457 gold per turn....

[Modo44]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
Sorry, as much as I love the civics system (and I DO love the civic system), I think its a bit of a crock having options like Emancipation, Free Speech and Representation being such low upkeep-yet providing nothing but benefits. Either these options should have a downside (and they DO have downsides in real life) like increased War Weariness, Unit maintainance costs or City Upkeep costs-or simply by making them high maintainance (and, if you ask most politicians in democratic nations, I bet you they will say-off the record-that free speech and representation ARE high maintainance !)

Or, the cost is -- among other things -- not having other bonuses. Imagine another civ, military-oriented, running without those, but with many free units (or cheap units, whatever the actual unit upkeep system), and maybe some auto-producing or with added abilities. Imagine them knocking at your door one day...

Of course you could argue the peaceful benefits are more powerful, as one could switch to war-time civics. But try switching for war, with each civic adding more turns of Anarchy (I do not know this, just assuming a similar model to SMAC, with Anarchy instead of Gold costs.), and you might end up with it being effectively over before you are done. I guess we will know once tha game is out how well that was balanced (and how much experience you will need to operate the civics' changes with maximum effect and flexibility).

[Nikolai]

Originally posted by Adagio
I liked the older civics screen better, this one looks boring

I thought the opposite.

[kolpo]

I hope that all other civcs are as powerfull the ones displayed in that screenshot. Civic options should be perfectly balanced and players should NEVER reach consensus about what are the best civics or even what are the best peace/war civics.

If one choice is much better then the rest, are you no longer making a choice but are you instead just doing tendius work. So I really hope that the other civic options are also very powerfull.

I hope that we do in the future a poll like "what is the best government civic" that no single option shall get more then 30% of the votes.