new civics article

[Fidel]

civfanatics guys have already linked it

http://www.shacknews.com/docs/press/090905_civ4_civics.x

Choosing your government has been an interesting part of playing Civilization since the original. In Civ IV, our team at Firaxis has really ramped up this feature and given players many more choices, which bring with them a whole new set of interesting decisions to make and strategies to employ. The new Civics system will allow players to customize their government to fit their current situation and style of play.

In the game, when you first open the Civics page you will see 25 options divided into 5 categories. The categories are: government, legal, labor, economy, and religion. Initially, you will be limited to the lowest levels for each (making you a barbaric, decentralized despotism with tribal labor and practicing paganism), but you will unlock more of the choices based on your research. Changing to new Civic forms will have a dramatic effect on the character and success of your civilization. You'll be able to boost or cut productivity, wealth, and happiness, make choices to increase/decrease the spread of religion, and even affect your ability to produce and maintain a large standing army.

Of course, it's not just as simple as picking all the highest level Civic options. A monarch needs to make the tough decisions. Every choice has an upkeep level assigned to it and you could end up with a really great government that puts you in the poorhouse. In addition, your current circumstances might make it impossible for you to use some of the higher-level choices. The good news for all the leaders out there is that you will be able to play around with all the choices and get an idea of the costs and benefits before you have to “Start the Revolution”.

So, the choice is up to you. Will you be a despot or a king? Will your people respond better to a democratically elected ruler or a theocrat? Will you have a free market or is everything state property? Make the best choices and lead your people to their rightful place in history!

[Kataphraktoi]

thanks

[Spiffor]

Interesting. It seems they keep the Civ idea of having governments that are better than others. The downside of the better governments appears to be that they cost an extra upkeep (I guess it costs money per turn)

Very intriguing

[sophist]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Interesting. It seems they keep the Civ idea of having governments that are better than others. The downside of the better governments appears to be that they cost an extra upkeep (I guess it costs money per turn)

I wouldn't call that better at all. Different choices mean different tradeoffs.

[Kataphraktoi]

if you played smac,you would know that a choice like wealth or knowledge is simply flat out better than power even if you have to pay 200 gold\EC for it.

[Maniac]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Interesting. It seems they keep the Civ idea of having governments that are better than others.

That sucks. It'll have to be modded in something more balanced right away.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

This is something I am a little unsure about. Obviously I LOVE the idea of Civics being in the game, but I had hoped that they would do it something like in SMAC, where you had definite trade-offs. So being theocratic was great to keep the people in line, but it hurt your ability to perform research. Environmentalism made you less susceptible to pollution, but cost you population growth-that kind of thing.
True, some SE choices had 2 benefits and 1 penalty-or vice versa-but it was still about 'getting the balance right'.
I think this will prove to be one of those areas where I will have to 'wait and see', and be prepared to mod it if I don't like it
Actually, re-reading the article does give me some small measure of hope. This part:

Changing to new Civic forms will have a dramatic effect on the character and success of your civilization. You'll be able to boost or cut productivity, wealth, and happiness, make choices to increase/decrease the spread of religion, and even affect your ability to produce and maintain a large standing army.

I mean, why would you choose to cut productivity or wealth unless it was a trade off for boosting something else? Perhaps this is combined with the upkeep cost to prevent people going instantly for the civic option-in each category-which they like best (even if there are already offsetting penalties!)

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Interesting. It seems they keep the Civ idea of having governments that are better than others. The downside of the better governments appears to be that they cost an extra upkeep (I guess it costs money per turn)

Very intriguing

Obviously some will be better than others, but hopefully there won't be a "best".

OTOH, gold costs are a horrible way to balance it, if they're just straight costs of X gpt (or even based on empire size or something). Then one government can easily absolutely dominate another, and you can calculate it - just see if you can leverage the bonuses of the other government to make up for the gold shortage. If you can, than the other government is absolutely superior. I'd prefer a multidimensional system of tradeoffs.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

As I said in my post above, Kuciwalker, I get a feeling that Barry's use of the words boost OR cut is very telling-because no-one in their right mind would willingly cut their production, wealth or happiness UNLESS they were getting something in return that they felt was worth the sacrifice.
I do suspect, though, that the upkeep cost of civics choices is tied to empire size, based on some allusions they have made to civics/empire size in the past.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Aro]

I'm optimistic... I dont think this will be balanced using just gold costs. Probabily you'll have to make hard choices, loosing and cutting benefits in some areas:

Of course, it's not just as simple as picking all the highest level Civic options. A monarch needs to make the tough decisions. Every choice has an upkeep level assigned to it and you could end up with a really great government that puts you in the poorhouse. In addition, your current circumstances might make it impossible for you to use some of the higher-level choices.

As I said, I am optimistic...

However,

The good news for all the leaders out there is that you will be able to play around with all the choices and get an idea of the costs and benefits before you have to “Start the Revolution”.

What does it mean?

[Sirian]

Originally posted by Maniac


That sucks. It'll have to be modded in something more balanced right away.

I would think that is easier said than done.

- Sirian

[Fosse]

Originally posted by Aro

What does it mean?

It probably means that, just like SMAC, you'll be able to select different choices and see the numbers change on the Civics screen to reflect what your production bonus or economy penalties or whatever else are.

I would agree that what we hear here does not state that there will be better civics options that simply cost more. It could mean that, but it could also mean that each civic choices has pros and cons, and some of the cons are some kind of maintenance. I'm sure that, like SMAC and previous Civs, choices will have both pros and cons; and like SMAC and previous Civs some options will clearly outweigh others; and like SMAC and previous Civs there will still be a time for everything.

[Aro]

Oh, a preview... Thanks, Fosse!

[Fidel]

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
I do suspect, though, that the upkeep cost of civics choices is tied to empire size, based on some allusions they have made to civics/empire size in the past.

yeah, imagine upkeep cost of the chinese democracy

[kolpo]

It's good that they seem to try to balance civic options. It is also realistic,state organized religion shall have to spend money to pay the churches/priests, unlike religious freedom where they use private money.

The +exp bonus of vassalage seem me usefull in ALL ages for example so I hope they really balance it with the other options.

A choice where one option is better then the rest is not a real choice because you could just as well have only one option. I hope and think that the civ4 devs are aware of this and shall perfectly balance all civic options. So that players shall NEVER reach consensus on what option is the best one