Religion

[Solver]

eastern religions don't have holy cities

What about Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem for Islam?

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by Solver

eastern religions don't have holy cities

What about Mecca, Medina and Jerusalem for Islam?

Sorry, by eastern I meant east of the middle-east. My bad.

[GeoModder]

Isn't Lhasa considered such for a certain religion?

[sophist]

Benares/Varanasi? It's no Mecca, but it's certainly sufficient counter-example.

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by sophist
Benares/Varanasi? It's no Mecca, but it's certainly sufficient counter-example.

It'll do in a pinch, but I don't like it. Not quite the same thing. In any case, definitely nothing like that for Buddhists, Taoists, Confuciasts (sp?).

[Solver]

Sorry, by eastern I meant east of the middle-east. My bad.

Aye, and some even go as far as to debate whether those ARE religions. Take Taoism. The works of Lao Zi are more aking to philosophical works, and Taoism can also be validly described as a philosopihcal school and not a religion.

Confucianism, AFAIK, is also a school of thought based on works of Confucius, and does not have worship of a deity or many deities.

[sophist]

Originally posted by LordShiva
It'll do in a pinch, but I don't like it. Not quite the same thing. In any case, definitely nothing like that for Buddhists, Taoists, Confuciasts (sp?).

Well, it's not like Holy City is a super powerful thing. As far as I can tell, what it means is that's where the religion starts, there's some degree of veneration for the site, and it enables construction of certain special wonders. It doesn't, however, mean that you can command adherents of that faith if you control it. That seems compatible with Buddhism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. Those were all religions that started somewhere, after all. Can't say much about Taoism or Confucianism, though, but then, I don't think those should be the other two game religions as it is.

[evilnerd15]

Originally posted by Solver


Aye, and some even go as far as to debate whether those ARE religions. Take Taoism. The works of Lao Zi are more aking to philosophical works, and Taoism can also be validly described as a philosopihcal school and not a religion.

Confucianism, AFAIK, is also a school of thought based on works of Confucius, and does not have worship of a deity or many deities.

True but I consider religion to be an organized belief concerning the supernatural or spirituality. Therefore I think all seven of the religions qualify as such. However I'm disappointed at the selection of religions in the game.

I think that some sort of Greco-Roman mythology should be included. I don't think we need three far eastern religions that all have many similarities. There should be a greater variety of religions.

[Solver]

Claiming that Taoism and Confucianism are similar is not really correct. And both are more than an organized belief concerning spirituality and the supernatural. In fact, Judaism and Christianity are also more than that.

Taoism is largely about Tao, the way of the Universe, which everyone and everything follows. Taoism is based on following the works of Lao Zi and Zhuang Zi, and those do not say anything about gods. In China, though, some people worship Lao Zi as well as have magic rituals, alchemy-style things and such. But the core Taoist philosophical system is not about gods.

Confucianism is based on works of Confucius, which may have some ideas similar to the Taoist ones, but the works are overall different, as is the philosophy. Confucius does make mention of other beings, and there are also rituals in Confucianism, but there's no worshipping of a god or deities nonetheless.

Islam is completely different to those two. Islam is a religion in any sense of the word, since it has a god that is worshipped.

If it was my call, I'd replace Confucianism in the game with Shintoism, as it's undeniably a religion, and because there are less similarities between Shintoism and Taoism. However, I'm also fine with the current choice.

[evilnerd15]

Originally posted by Solver
Claiming that Taoism and Confucianism are similar is not really correct. And both are more than an organized belief concerning spirituality and the supernatural. In fact, Judaism and Christianity are also more than that.

I'm aware of that. I'm just saying that I consider any organized belief concerning spirituality and the supernatural to be a religion. I was not implying that Taoism and Confucianism are simply organized beliefs concerning spirituality and the supernatural. I was just stating my criteria for something to be considered a religion.

[Solver]

I was responding to you saying "I don't think we need three far eastern religions that all have many similarities". Whether Confucianism is at all a belief concerning the supernatural is still debateable.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I would consider Islamic Countries West of India to be part of Western Civilization. Cristianity, Judisim and Islam are all derived from Abraham who basicaly started the Monotheism as we know it in the furtile cresent several thousand years ago.

I would like to see religions that have disapeared in modern society (the Civ4 list is heavily biased towards religions that still exist), just a short lits of "dead" religions.

Animalism (orsomething to this effect representing Animal/Nature worship)
Helenism (greeko-roman Mythology)
Paganism (Celtic and Norse systems)
??? (Egyptian mythology, cant think of a good name)

[LordShiva]

Originally posted by evilnerd15

I don't think we need three far eastern religions that all have many similarities. There should be a greater variety of religions.

There are only two far-easter religions.

I would've liked to see some sort of Greco-Roman religion.

[Nikolai]

I found this on Firaxis' home page, under "Ask Sid". I don't think this has been linked to yet:

Question: I am a big fan of all of your games. I have been playing Civilization since the first one was released and I can not wait for Civilization IV. I do have a question about Civilization IV as it relates to religion. Can your government have no state religion? If so can they influence border nations with their secular beliefs?

Sid: Hello Orie! Yes, the default is Paganism, which means there is no organized religion. At the other end of the spectrum is Free Religion and that offers tolerance of all religions. It's not possible to spread no religion where there is already religion. It's a play mechanic, but I am pretty sure it holds up that way in history as well.

[Addled Platypus]

"It's not possible to spread no religion where there is already religion"


sounds logical

C'mon and just ship it