BIG money! Should Civ return, just a little, to caravans?

[sophist]

It's certainly a step in the right direction. Things to be resolved:

1) How automatic is that? I think the cargo ships should be automated, but piracy should be manual.
2) Requires quantified resources.
3) This only pertains to trading of strategic resources, not the more abstract and general trade as in commerce.

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

I have long advocated a system wherby when you make a trade deal, it forms a trade route which only you-and your trading partner-are able to see under normal circumstances (and even then, only with an appropriate filter on). Anyone else needs to discover it via espionage or via a unit being in the right spot. Also, trade routes would have an 'underlying cost', depending on the distance between the two nations-and the number of 3rd party cities through which the route passes.
The other thing I have long advocated is that trade routes have both a 'Speed' and a 'Strength' rating-dictated by current technology levels. The speed affects the value of the trade route, and Strength effects how likely an enemy is to disrupt the route if they choose the 'Piracy' or 'Embargo' option. In the trade screen, it should be possible to adjust either the speed or strength of a trade route, usually at the expense of the other rating-unless you want to increase the cost of the trade route.
Hope that makes sense.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[Dis]

those are good ideas. I like them.

[Lancer]

Sea captains of the age of sail had their routes determined by the prevailing winds, the 'rivers of wind' according to Columbus. Then, with the horizon being just a few miles away entire fleets could sail past each other and not know. This is why the English were so fond of blockades...once the blockaded ships escaped they were very hard to find again. Better to keep them bottled up than trying to find them. Also, while bottled up the enemy would gradually lose sailing skills. When coupled with the need to escape during storms when blockading ships were blown off station, it became very dangerous to go to sea. So whole fleets just rotted at their moorings. If they did set sail and were caught, the Brits would sail circles around them while hammering away with broadsides.

Anyway, a game that could acurately model stuff like prevailing winds, and blockades, and even smuggleing by blockade runners, could have an interesting trade system.

[Addled Platypus]

Originally posted by sophist
It's certainly a step in the right direction. Things to be resolved:

1) How automatic is that? I think the cargo ships should be automated, but piracy should be manual.

borrow more from RTS and have a patrol hot key


2) Requires quantified resources.

easily modable just like UU have UR (unique resources?)

3) This only pertains to trading of strategic resources, not the more abstract and general trade as in commerce.

agreed

[Yarco_TW]

Microdiscoveries and microtrade

Originally posted by The_Aussie_Lurker
I have long advocated a system whereby when you make a trade deal, it forms a trade route which only you-and your trading partner-are able to see under normal circumstances (and even then, only with an appropriate filter on). Anyone else needs to discover it via espionage or via a unit being in the right spot. Also, trade routes would have an 'underlying cost', depending on the distance between the two nations-and the number of 3rd party cities through which the route passes.
The other thing I have long advocated is that trade routes have both a 'Speed' and a 'Strength' rating-dictated by current technology levels. The speed affects the value of the trade route, and Strength effects how likely an enemy is to disrupt the route if they choose the 'Piracy' or 'Embargo' option. In the trade screen, it should be possible to adjust either the speed or strength of a trade route, usually at the expense of the other rating-unless you want to increase the cost of the trade route.
Hope that makes sense.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

This being just one more discussion on trade, I cannot abstain.

Current system of revenue collection is based on taxing city squares, which have roads or rivers. In history long-distant trade (Silk Route, across Sahara trade, Mediterranean trade, Spice Trade, America-Europe and India-Europe trade, European India-to-India trade) played important role in short-term economic growth of Civilizations on earth.

Therefore, it should be modeled.

But here are some problems with what Civ is nowadays.

In real history it took 3 or something years to circumnavigate Africa, and 2 years for Columbus to cross the Atlantic and 4 years for Magellan's folk to circumnavigate the globe. It also took one turn to travel across great Silk route. But not all travels were successful.

In terms of Civ3 these are one-turn events. However, it will take you over 50 turns to do so, if you decide to actually play Civ3. The reason is that there is nothing available to stop your ship on its route. It can sink only in the sea at the end of turn. Therefore, without real-history limitations of 1) storms 2) icebergs 3) riots on board 4) piracy, which should ALL be possible ON YOUR WAY (not after) we will never get rid of "micro discoveries" (and micromanagement).

The world of caravans was very like micro discoveries and micro conquests in existing Civ. The proposals of Aussie_Lurker are more of a one-turn approach (i.e. creating constantly existing routes).

But then we should have all Civ removing the micro-movement approach. The new somewhat faster moving Civ should

1) have "order" approach to game. This means that if in year 200 B.C. you have 10 armies and 3 fleets, you make orders for them in one shot. Unlike Civ3 you must not be able to Conquer city 1, and only then conquer city 2 (and reload, if failed). If you order both armies capture city 1, you lose resources (extra idle army in the city). If you order two armies attack 2 cities, both might fail. And you will lose two armies.

2) have long route capabilities. This means I can send an army to conquer 3 cities in one turn. It can win city 1 and city 2, but be defeated at city 3. And then the fate of cities 1 and 2 are in doubt. The same is true of caravels, caravans, and the such. I might well send a ship to circumnavigate Africa, but it will meet 4 storms and 5 barbarian attacks, and I really should not know if anybody would return. Only if they will, I will get the news of a new world.

3) There should be high risks of long-distance travel. Riots, Barbarians, storms and icebergs, swamps and diseases, etc. Overall, I should be theoretically able to circumnavigate globe on a trireme in one turn (speed permitting), but this should be 100% practically impossible. This achieves the same goal as the "operating range concept", but through different means.

4) If I send somebody on a discovery route to discover America, I should discover nothing if the ship is lost on its way back. Only successful return trips generate embassies, trade routes and discoveries.

5) The cost of suicide travels, conquests, and trade should not be prohibitive. I should risk my units for all three purposes of discovery, trade and war. AI should also make suicide orders.

6) Trade units and diplomat units should have 2 options
a) make one-turn trip
b) create permanent embassy or trade route.
Military units should have "patrol" and "fight piracy and robbery" functions. It should be possible to lose permanent embassies and trade routes through piracy and the such as well. But the cost of random success should be sufficient to cover the costs.

7) The game MUST not be reloadable. You should be encouraged to play for a fixed time, and then make auto-save. There should be one save available only. The current one. The risks should be your luck. You MUST NOT reload them.

8) Discoveries and trade should also be macro-generated by private citizens. You should get a note like "Our merchants managed to start trade with Timbuktu this year". But the Civ leader should be macro-responsible for maintaining the security of routes, defending the cities, and ensuring that taxes do not kill all merchants.

This is a radically new approach, but it is more in line with reality than anything else.

[Paddy]

Yes I so hope they have been spending time and effort on this issue. So many great options that can be implemented... heres hoping