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  • Plauges & Pestilences

    I was watching the Second part of Guns, Germs and Steel and was wonding about how this fellows Geography determining winners and loosers in History could enlighten Civ gaming.

    Civ takes major account of Geography, Resorces and Tecnology. But I think it is lacking in the field of Germs. As we all know New World Civilizations were devastated by old world Diseses, yet the Old world picked up very few diseases from the New. GGS atributed this to the differing levels of Animal Domestication between Old and New world. Most human diseases are transmited through and originate in our domesticated animals, this process continues even to this day with Avien Flu from China. The Old world Domesticated virtualy ALL of the worlds animals. Virtualy non were domesticated in the New World or Sub-Saharan Africa. Thus Europeans had already been exposed to and developed resistences to a smorgasboard of diseases over the course of thousands of years. Ofcorse the introduction of a new Disease (Black Plauge) was just as devastating to Europeans as it would be to anybody without imunites. The old world simply had more "plauge amunition" when it came to biological warfare intentional or unintentional.

    Now how to model this process in a Civ game. First off Pluage events should be BIG events capable of making deep 25-50% cuts into your population (But populations should rebound faster with the now abundant food and space). They might as well be Empire or Continent wide event rather then a single city event. I cant think of any case ware a major disease outbreak failed to eventualy spread to all possible areas in a short time after escaping its initial breakout point. Now if we take the idea being used or Religion and adapt that to Animal Domestication then you can get new Diseases to come into the world. Each time a player researches Animal Domestication they spawn a new Disease, all the Diseases would be named so you would actualy get to have a "Small Pox" plauge or a "Cholera" Plauge. Now the cool thing is that the Discovering player imediatly gets Imunity to this new Plauge (after all they developed it their people are already exposed and coexisting with it). Forign Empires can be hit by a Plauge ofcorse and for a few turns (3-5) they suffer badly but also get imunity. Imunity last for a period of time or their could be some way of constantly creating new Plauges as time goes on. The more forign contact the player has the more Disease they will suffer but they will recover and be stronger for it. The incressed contact will accelerate them tecnologicaly and they can start to get some Medical tec to lessen the effects. These Civs will be at a major advantage when they come across more isolated Civs as they will by the mear pressence of their ships and explorors infect the locals with possibly several deadly plauges thus weakening them for a invashion.
    Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators, the creator seeks - those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest. - Thus spoke Zarathustra, Fredrick Nietzsche

  • #2
    Yes, this sounds like a nice idea, but I don't think it should be implemented to such a massive degree as it did the real world. Why? Inagine that you are on a continent with 4 other civs and are playing with 16 (yes I'm using CivIII numbers here, but that doesn't matter). You beat them up good and secure your continent. You are a massive power. You discover whatever tech is needed to cross oceans and float to the other continent that has 11 civs on it and massive amounts of disease that you are not immune to. Your pop is descimated and then they float over and slaughter your weakend defenses. Sounds very realistic, but would absolutly suck for the player. he would have lost based solely on the fact that his continent was smaller and had less civs on it. That just wouldn't be fair and would turn people off the game.
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    • #3
      If there are 11 civs on the other continent, chances are they're too busy fighting each other to rush over to your continent and attack you. Sending a big enough force to take you down, even weakened, would leave them too vulnerable to their local enemies. That's especially true given how bad the AI was at waging overseas wars in Civ3.

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      • #4
        any implementation of this in the game would cause players to beeline for medicine or whatever tech would eventually put a stop to this. The number of plagues described happening above would ruin the game for me, but if only one or two occurred in the game using a lot of civs, that might not be so bad.

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        • #5
          Think of it as a way to balance the ridiculous advantage that the first player to make contact has. In Civ3, it was in your best interest to go traipsing around the world and discover every civilization in it. That was both unrealistic and hugely beneficial. However, if you risk infecting your people with a plague every time you encounter a new nation, it becomes more of a cost/benefit trade-off, as opposed to unvarnished benefit. On the other hand, you also face a risk every time a civ you know makes a contact you don't know, so maybe it doesn't balance out.

          The beeline to Medicine could be countered by it only reducing, not eliminating plagues. Sanitation is far more important for that. In addition, the benefits wouldn't come from just having the tech, but also from having the improvements allowed by the tech. Hospitals, sewage systems, aqueducts, etc. all would work to reduce the effect of a plague.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by sophist
            If there are 11 civs on the other continent, chances are they're too busy fighting each other to rush over to your continent and attack you. Sending a big enough force to take you down, even weakened, would leave them too vulnerable to their local enemies. That's especially true given how bad the AI was at waging overseas wars in Civ3.
            Not if they all are AI

            once 1 finds you, they would tell 2 friends and so on and so on.

            Next thing you know they all want some tech and will ally agaisnt you.

            sad but true
            anti steam and proud of it

            CDO ....its OCD in alpha order like it should be

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            • #7
              Er... only if they program the AI to behave that way. They wouldn't, though, because that would be really annoying and unfair if plagues were in the game.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by sophist


                The beeline to Medicine could be countered by it only reducing, not eliminating plagues. Sanitation is far more important for that.

                Better sanitation reduces the likelihood of certain killers- cholera, typhoid, dysentery- but then so does improved personal hygiene.

                Better sanitation (or at least reservoirs of potable drinking water) helped the mosquito population to thrive in ancient and mediaeval Sri Lanka, and better sanitation would not necessarily eliminate smallpox or bubonic plague, or influenza- three big historical killers.

                Smallpox was raging in the Incan empire when Pizarro revisited after his first contact with its distant reaches- transmitted it is believed via long distance trade or tribute networks, person to person from Colombia, and plague and influenza are well known for their devastating effects on European, Asian and world history.
                Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by sophist
                  Er... only if they program the AI to behave that way. They wouldn't, though, because that would be really annoying and unfair if plagues were in the game.
                  then that's exactly what they would do.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by molly bloom
                    Better sanitation reduces the likelihood of certain killers- cholera, typhoid, dysentery- but then so does improved personal hygiene.

                    Better sanitation (or at least reservoirs of potable drinking water) helped the mosquito population to thrive in ancient and mediaeval Sri Lanka, and better sanitation would not necessarily eliminate smallpox or bubonic plague, or influenza- three big historical killers.
                    I lumped that all under Sanitation since Civ doesn't have a separate tech for Bathing and Not Being Gross.

                    Originally posted by H Tower
                    then that's exactly what they would do.
                    Do you think maybe then the problem is the programmers, not the plagues? You can make every single feature annoying, too powerful, too weak, etc. If it's implemented badly, don't blame the feature, blame the implementors.

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                    • #11
                      Call to Power did a good job of biological warfare. An outbreak of disease that occured in one city had a certain chance of spreading to other cities that were connected with trade routes.
                      I think it would be great if plagues and pandemics were portrayed, but I don't think it's going to happen.
                      If a city was full of yellow fever, it would affect its population level and ability to produce and trade- not too hard to model in a game I think. And you might think twice about attacking it with your army too...

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                      • #12
                        I don't think the plague would be a whole lot of fun.
                        Nothing bothers me more than having a city lose inhabitants to disease because they haven't figured out mosquito nets in civ 3

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                        • #13
                          extend that thing of disease to units in foreign territory. Also it would be a good idea to increase the chance of disease if swamps or jungles are nearby, affecting either units or cities.
                          "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results." - Winston Churchill

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Alexander D
                            extend that thing of disease to units in foreign territory. Also it would be a good idea to increase the chance of disease if swamps or jungles are nearby, affecting either units or cities.

                            Not just the tropics though: Napoleon's Grand Army marching on Russia were severely afflicted by scorched earth tactics and lack of potable and clean water, leading to great outbreaks of typhus.


                            Within a few days of crossing the Niemen, several soldiers began to develop high fevers and pink rashes on their bodies. Typhus had broken out in the Grande Armée, and, because of this scourge, most soldiers would not see Moscow.
                            Typhus has always been associated with war. Indeed, one of its many colloquial names is war fever. Zinsser (1934) stated, "Typhus had come to be the inevitable and expected companion of war and revolution; no encampment, no campaigning army, and no besieged city escaped it." Rickettsia prowazekii (da Rocha-Lima), a bacterialike organism, causes the dreadful disease. The human body louse, Pediculus humanus L., has been a scourge to humans for centuries. It transmits typhus to humans and humans return the "favor" by infecting the louse, which is also a victim of the disease, seldom surviving its attack. Typhus truly is a disease of humans and lice; no animal reservoirs are known to be involved in the disease cycle.



                            Tropical diseases saw off many of the first Europeans to explore West Africa and the Indonesian archipelago, and yellow fever transmitted to the Caribbean carried off American troops in the Spanish-American War.

                            American soldiers were jaundiced and running high fevers (the term Yellow Fever stems from the combination of jaundice and fever). In its advanced stages, victims often vomited dark blood, giving the deadly malady another nickname..."the black vomit". Secretary Alger ordered General Shafter to separate his forces into two camps: the sick camps, and the well camps. The largest of the sick camps was the makeshift tent hospital at Siboney. Those who were well, did their best to keep a distance from those who were sick.
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                            Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                            ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

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                            • #15
                              FYI
                              there is a scenario in conquests with plague on
                              anti steam and proud of it

                              CDO ....its OCD in alpha order like it should be

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