So Basically We Have Civ 3...but in 3D?

[sophist]

Originally posted by Solver


Poor comparison . If it isn't obvious to you that 3125 civic combinations are more fun in gameplay terms than 6 governments, then nothing will help you .

I dunno. More can often be less. I could see people getting bewildered and turned off by the array of options available to them. Not to say I think it will happen, but just to counter the premature "more is better."

[Solver]

I could see people getting bewildered and turned off by the array of options available to them.

Yes, people who want a game that is as simple to play as Doom .

[General Ludd]

There's thousands of flavours of ice cream. Most of them are crap, though. Is there really a choice when your options are between vanilla and squid ink icecream?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by yin26

Removal of corruption is a pretty fundamental change, and will obviously make a difference.

I just see things like that making the game easier, actually. If they simultaneously make the game simpler AND more thought-provoking, that's one thing.

They've replaced it with something else. Do actually learn about the game before you shoot your mouth off about it. Again.

Yes, they were, but when Civ 1 was released those many years ago, it took us a while to beat the system. In other words, the dead weight was much, much easier to ignore because the game was fresh.

So civ2 must have sucked, too, since the game wasn't fresh.

My concern here, as always, would be: How well can the AI exploit these mechanisms? We won't know, of course, but on the one hand they seem to be eliminating things that are a detriment to the player (corruption, for example) while potentially introducing things (thousands? of political combinations) that are likely to be lost on the AI, which will likely adhere to some pretty simple rule sets.

Since you have no experience here, and since we know they're putting a lot into the AI now, I see this as just BS posturing to convince yourself that the game can't possibly be good.

[Terra Nullius]

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theocratic police state!!!
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blast! missed a stitch,..

[The Templar]

Re: So Basically We Have Civ 3...but in 3D?

Originally posted by yin26
The last time that formula worked was when Sid turned Civ 2 over to Brian Reynolds. Problem is, Brian is a superstar. Speaking of, anybody seen what Rise of Legends is doing with graphics? There's a case where the graphics upgrades actually look to add something significant to the game...not to mention that BHG seems determined to push the envelope a little bit ...

... Civ 1 --> Civ 2 --> Civ 2.5 --> (and now) Civ 2.7 By my account, we'll have a true Civ 3 released in 2012 -- but only after a hostile take over of the Civ franchise by BHG.

Hmm, with all the praise for BHG I wonder if you work there?

Meh, Reynolds is a hack - I liked Rise of Nations better back when it was called Age of Empires. And how about that SMAC AI?

But I also think you're dead right that Civ suffers from an "economy of scale problem." One simply cannot have a competetive civiliation that is small in Civ. This of course goes against reality where Japan and Switzerland are far more productive than such land giants as Chad, Nigeria, or Mexico. I hold out little hope that the latest iteration will do anything about this problem.

[yin26]

They've replaced it with something else. Do actually learn about the game before you shoot your mouth off about it. Again.

I'm up to speed on the game. You don't get it, right?

So civ2 must have sucked, too, since the game wasn't fresh.

It's the law of diminishing returns at some point if you don't take the game in new directions. Civ 2 was early enough on in the series that relatively small improvements (not to mention just making the game look good on modern machines of the time) was enough. And in an era when most sequels crash and burn, Reynolds did a great job overall. Now are you telling me Civ 3 was a success? And now you think Civ 4 is going to be one as well? Again, pay your $50. Doesn't harm me any.

EDIT: By the way, I mean success as in a great game...not a Sid seller.

Since you have no experience here, and since we know they're putting a lot into the AI now, I see this as just BS posturing to convince yourself that the game can't possibly be good.

Oh but I do have experience with this one. We all do! Some of us just ignore it. "Putting a lot into the AI." Hilarious!

I hold out little hope that the latest iteration will do anything about this problem.

Of course, for many here, this "problem" is just classic Civ flavor. Go figure. As for Reynolds, I'll give you that RON was a knock off. He basically admits as much. But he did innovate to some admirable degree with it (I won't rehash that here), and it did get RTS of the year in some places.

I'm looking at Rise of Lengends to tell us the true story of the man. He's got a longer rope to hang himself now (perhaps the longest he has ever had, actually). But you have to admit the screen shots look really good, and I think some of the gameplay possibilities look good, too.

SMAC, as I've said, was something of a failure IMO. Some awful bugs really killed it for me, though I did see some honest attempts to do some interesting things in that game.

[Kuciwalker]

It's the law of diminishing returns at some point if you don't take the game in new directions. Civ 2 was early enough on in the series that relatively small improvements (not to mention just making the game look good on modern machines of the time) was enough. And in an era when most sequels crash and burn, Reynolds did a great job overall. Now are you telling me Civ 3 was a success?

Yes. It fixed a lot that was broken - it made ICS a strategy, not an exploit, for instance - and *most* people have moved over.

Oh but I do have experience with this one.

You've played it, have you?

[Patroklos]

If the game looks like ass, I might not hang around long enough for the gamplay. 2d

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Hey Yin!! Anyone who praises a crappy game like 'Rise of Nations', over Civilization, has got to have his head sooooo far up is *you know where* that he simply can't see straight. Truth is, I bought Rise of Nations for around $30 Australian dollars and guess how many times I played it before I got bored? Twice, and now its sitting in a corner gathering dust. Why? Because it was nothing more than a boring little 'click-fest' with no overarching goals or strategy to hold it all together. If this is the best thing that Brian Reynolds can create by himself, then all I can say is that he made a huge mistake leaving the Firaxis team.
Give me a game like Civ3, which I have played hundreds of times without it ever losing its gloss, over these grotesque RTS 'Churn and Burns'-games which seem to be designed for simpletons who are attracted more to pretty colours and bright lights than half-way decent strategy or gameplay. In fact, Yin, given how little you have contributed to the Civilization forums-and how much you apparently hate the entire franchise-why don't you go off and play your little kiddy games, and leave the more in-depth adult strategy to the rest of us?

Aussie_Lurker.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Well Yin has always built his 'reputation' as a pessimist . It's his reason for being. He cannot praise Civ, it's just not in him.

Hi Yin .

[The_Aussie_Lurker]

Oh, I know Yin from waaaaayyyy back. Glad to see he is still such a 'misery guts' . I am personally quite happy to listen to people criticise things, but I usually expect a rational and dispassionate argument-not a 'Its Civ, its not Rise of Nations-therefore I hate it!'. That is just stupid....but, as you said, Imran, this is Yin we are talking about, so I guess intelligence is just too much to ask for !

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.

[yin26]

Wow. Flame bait!

Nah, it's pretty clear the problems with the franchise, and I've been clear that the problem isn't the core game but that we're now on the 4th version of it with nothing really to show for it than a horrible 3rd version building onto --from everything we've seen-- a lackluster "new" installment.

And I can't help it if RON was too hard for some people. Stick with checkers.

[yin26]

By the way, anybody who would like to read about Rise of Nations --and how Gamespot awarded it Strategy Game of the Year-- can go here: http://www.gamespot.com/gamespot/fea...3/day4_24.html So if you didn't like RON, you didn't understand it (or sucked at it). That or you just don't like RTS, which is fine, but at least it innovated in its genre.

Civ, like I said, is dead (until another company takes it over and does it right). Sorry if this makes some people sad.

[Adagio]

Try to check out this game in progress:

http://apolyton.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=254&daysprune=

Maybe that's more to your liking?

Don't expect this game to be released soon though