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  • #1

    Animalism/tribalism/else: religion from the start?

    Should tribalism (or whattever it gets called) be a religion from the start? Tribal (or not after) religious "authorities", people considered as wise were of great importance, the "wise men" forming a pillar next to the chief/leader. These customs, ways, etc. certainly do have a certain following an are a beginning. It also implies that the first religions need to "fight" their way through somehow, and that supporting these customs/religious ideas is truly part of the game.

    This can be strongly linked to tradition, from old people to all the others. It gave a great importance to older generations as teachers of oral wisdom, the "ancients' tradition wisdom".


    The idea came at http://www.apolyton.net/forums/showt...hreadid=134524


    Edit: "Animalism" should have be "animism" in the title. It's not my fault, it's those who wrote in the original thread which I copied!
    38
    Yes, bring in the shaman/wise or whattever
    44.74%
    17
    No.
    28.95%
    11
    Other (explain)
    2.63%
    1
    Go bananalism!!
    23.68%
    9
    Last edited by Trifna; June 5, 2005, 17:35.
    Go GalCiv, go! Go Society, go!
    Tags: None
  • #2
    It should have no capital though.

    Comment

    • #3
      oh, come on. screw 'wise men'

      i wanna chain my hostages to the altar and devour their living organs. and whatever protestant pc poof came up with the list of starting faiths is gonna be first up against the brazier!

      i want my missionaries to come with bat wings and nasty pointy teeth.
      I don't know what I am - Pekka

      Comment

      • #4
        Animism should be included as a religion just as the monotheistic religions are included in the game: meaning not from the beginning but as a possibility like Christianity and Hinduism will be. To start all Civ's off as animistic is to assume religion takes an evolutionary process, in which case is a Western view to promote the elitism of monotheism. Religion is not evolutionary, although it would seem that it could be put into an evolutionary outlook.
        However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

        Comment

        • #5
          Actually religion is evolutionary (though of course not to monotheism as you rightly point out).

          While religion or at least moral systems have always been present in human society, it used to be in the form of magical and mythological thinking. The religions were also very localized. One tribe could have their own gods to worship, while a tribe a few kilometers further could have a set of others. This didn't cause problems. It was considered normal for everyone to have their own different gods.

          This all starts changing in the first millennium BC. In the great cultural areas of those days (Middle East, India, China) large empires started forming. In that setting of increasing complexity and interaction, the tribal beliefs no longer succeeding in streamlining behaviour of all the geographically and culturally different peoples in the empires. New religions arose, who all to a certain degree had some characteristics that could appeal to the people living in those new society surroundings, and bind them together. These characteristics are:

          1. Claim to universality: "Our religion is the one truth, and it applies to ALL peoples, not just the Greeks/Germans/Egyptians... "

          2. Revelation: "These truths are given to me, the holy prophet, by God/The Highest Reality, and I have written them down in these books, which should not be doubted or changed!! " This gave the prophet's words a higher authority than those of a tribal religion.

          3. Dogmatism: As said above, if the words come from God, you can't change them anymore after writing them down. Opposed to mythology, which was flexible.

          4. Salvation: "Man is in a sad situation here on Earth. However by joining our One True ReligionTM, you can escape from this misery! "

          Thus you get Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Confucianism, the world religions that still exist today. Or Zoroastrism & Manicheism, to give two who didn't make it.

          So actually, I'd say it's pretty realistic that you can "research" universalist religions which makes it easier to keep people happy in a growing empire, and that everything that comes before those world religions (animism, Greek or Norse pantheons etc...) is simply represented as the initial starting condition 4000 BC without any benefits.
          Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
          Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

          Comment

          • #6
            Originally posted by Maniac
            Actually religion is evolutionary (though of course not to monotheism as you rightly point out).

            While religion or at least moral systems have always been present in human society, it used to be in the form of magical and mythological thinking. The religions were also very localized. One tribe could have their own gods to worship, while a tribe a few kilometers further could have a set of others. This didn't cause problems. It was considered normal for everyone to have their own different gods.

            This all starts changing in the first millennium BC. In the great cultural areas of those days (Middle East, India, China) large empires started forming. In that setting of increasing complexity and interaction, the tribal beliefs no longer succeeding in streamlining behaviour of all the geographically and culturally different peoples in the empires. New religions arose, who all to a certain degree had some characteristics that could appeal to the people living in those new society surroundings, and bind them together. These characteristics are:

            1. Claim to universality: "Our religion is the one truth, and it applies to ALL peoples, not just the Greeks/Germans/Egyptians... "

            2. Revelation: "These truths are given to me, the holy prophet, by God/The Highest Reality, and I have written them down in these books, which should not be doubted or changed!! " This gave the prophet's words a higher authority than those of a tribal religion.

            3. Dogmatism: As said above, if the words come from God, you can't change them anymore after writing them down. Opposed to mythology, which was flexible.

            4. Salvation: "Man is in a sad situation here on Earth. However by joining our One True ReligionTM, you can escape from this misery! "

            Thus you get Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Taoism, Confucianism, the world religions that still exist today. Or Zoroastrism & Manicheism, to give two who didn't make it.

            So actually, I'd say it's pretty realistic that you can "research" universalist religions which makes it easier to keep people happy in a growing empire, and that everything that comes before those world religions (animism, Greek or Norse pantheons etc...) is simply represented as the initial starting condition 4000 BC without any benefits.
            Yup.

            Comment

            • #7
              Actually, having NO form of organized religion is symbolic enough for tribalism.
              http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/text/france.html

              Why is France a Civ.?

              Comment

              • #8
                Originally posted by KyuuA4
                Actually, having NO form of organized religion is symbolic enough for tribalism.
                Rethink Refuse Reduce Reuse

                Do It Ourselves

                Comment

                • #9
                  Yes.. a nice tweak to the game

                  Just what kind of proposed bonuses would there be for Animalism/tribalism..

                  dont forget about animal totems in American Indian religons
                  anti steam and proud of it

                  CDO ....its OCD in alpha order like it should be

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Eh, the religions aren't going to have bonuses or weaknesses.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      I think "Secularism" is something that should be implemented to some extent in this game, either as a religion in and of itself or perhaps as a government policy. The additional element could perhaps add something along this line: secularist policies nullify some of the negative aspects of the state's main religion, while adding a negative effect of its own such as, perhaps, contentment.

                      What is the word on starting religion anyway? Firaxis has been surprisingly mum for a game that is allegedly to be released within a year.
                      Visit The Frontier for all your geopolitical, historical, sci-fi, and fantasy forum gaming needs.

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        Maniac, religion would be evolutionary from the view of it being used as a tool to control the masses -- sociologically and psychologically. But rather from the pure religious view, religion is not evolutionary. Polytheism is not a better suited form of religion over animism just as monotheism is not a better suited form of religion over polytheism.

                        Also, those listings you provide fit more squarely with Western monotheistic (Christianity, Judaism, Islam) religions than the Eastern religions you mentioned. The Eight Fold Path in Buddhism is not the road to enlightenment for everyone but just so happened to be Siddhartha's road to enlightenment. Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism are closer to guidances than they are strict rulings of religion, such as Christianity may be.
                        However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Its amazing how many religions started in deserts or mountains. I wonder if that will be reflected in the game.
                          "And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." -- JFK Inaugural, 1961
                          "Extremism in the defense of liberty is not a vice." -- Barry Goldwater, 1964 GOP Nomination acceptance speech (not George W. Bush 40 years later...)
                          2004 Presidential Candidate
                          2008 Presidential Candidate (for what its worth)

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                          • #14
                            I just noticed what the title reads: "Animalism/tribalism/else: religion from the start?"
                            However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              I guess they meant animism. (I don't know why I thought it said analism. Close enough )
                              "And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country. My fellow citizens of the world: ask not what America will do for you, but what together we can do for the freedom of man." -- JFK Inaugural, 1961
                              "Extremism in the defense of liberty is not a vice." -- Barry Goldwater, 1964 GOP Nomination acceptance speech (not George W. Bush 40 years later...)
                              2004 Presidential Candidate
                              2008 Presidential Candidate (for what its worth)

                              Comment

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