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  • New Nukes

    I am unhappy with the current state of affairs in regards to nuclear weapons in Civ3.

    I have thought about this for some months and here is what I am thinking.

    1. There should be two types of nuclear weapons, as in Civ3 (and the real world), but they should not have bombard capability. They need to be loaded onto something else in order to be delivered. Therefore there should be two types of "warheads" that you can produce.

    A. Tactical nukes. These warheads are weaker than the current Civ3 nukes. They would only do one tile damage, i.e. destroy improvements and units and produce pollution on the tile on which they explode.

    B. Thermonuclear warheads. These warheads would be the same strength as Civ3 nukes, i.e. doing damage to and pollution 9 squares (or 7 hexes, whichever map type is chosen in Civ4). These would be more expensive to produce and require more advanced techs.

    Type A nukes could be produced immediately after the Manhattan project. Since they cannot bombard, they must be loaded onto one of the following types of delivery mechanisms:

    X. Bomber. Loading a tactical nuke onto a bomber will cause the bomber to drop the nuke on its target on the next bombing missing the bomber undertakes. The Bomber still risks being shot down and the warhead destroyed.

    Y. Cruise (short range) missile. When loaded onto this type of missile, the nuke can be delivered up to 4-6 tiles from the launch site (current cruise missiles are just 2, which I think is too low). A cruise missile without a tactical nuke attached would act as a regular cruise missile and have range 4-6 tiles.

    Z. ICBM. An ICBM is just the delivery mechanism for a nuclear warhead. I.e. it must be "loaded" with a warhead of either tactical or thermonuclear type.

    Type B nukes could only be manufactured after some appropriate tech. They could only be loaded onto either Bombers or ICBMs (i.e. not cruise missiles).

    In addition to being weaker, tactical nukes would be cheaper to produce and maintain; they would carry less of a reputation hit when used, especially when used against military targets (as opposed to cities). The idea is to make modern warfare more deadly, but more fun by making nukes that are much more likely to be used on the battlefield.

    Additionally, I think cruise missiles need to be more useful by making them cheaper and go more places. Cruise Missiles (with or without attached tactical nukes) could be loaded onto nuclear submarines (3-4 missiles each sub) or Carriers (1-2 missiles). But only cruise missiles without nuclear warheads could be loaded onto Destroyers (1-2 missiles), Battleships (1-2 missiles), and AEGIS cruisers (1-2 missiles). Cruise missiles should be able to be airlifted, loaded onto transports (but not fired from transports), etc.


    I am continually frustrated by the nature of nuclear warfare in Civ3. I think it needs a change. Especially modern warfare, where the monotony of hundreds of MA and MI rolling around, coupled with gobs of Bombers is just too....boring?

    What do you think?
    Last edited by diablovision; March 12, 2005, 18:04.

  • #2
    I agree with you that nukes need to get changed. But for one, pollution is gone in Civ3, so the result for type B must be changed. Besides, I think nukes in Civ3 is a joke, we need a new approach.
    Do not fear, for I am with you; Do not anxiously look about you, for I am your God.-Isaiah 41:10
    I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made - Psalms 139.14a
    Also active on WePlayCiv.

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    • #3
      I think the biggest problem is that no one really knows what would happen if modern nuclear weapons were actually used (let alone biochemical). I don't mean technically, we've all seen the pictures of mushroom clouds in the pacific, but socio-economically and politically. Nonconventional weapons theories generally assume the concept of mutually assured destruction (MAD).

      Essentially, the only defense against a weapon of mass destruction (WMD) is that if one were used it would result in immediate and equal destruction of the user. MAD works simply because no state wants to be destroyed and the theory makes such a condition to the use of WMDs.

      Recently, this theory's been in trouble because 1) the two states between which the theory had been developed (US & USSR) are no longer rivals and 2) it is possible for an actor to use a WMD for whom MAD is inconsequential (i.e. religiously extreme terrorists).

      Ultimately, this is a difficult system to simulate in a TBS board game. But I don't think it would be impossible. Whatever it is, it should probably not involve "units" like it has in the past, but a separate element entirely. Again, this could be tricky but not impossible. Espionage experienced a similar change in Civ3.

      I would support a Global Tactics screen, similar to that Espionage screen, where one's nukes are pre-targeted (which was a common theme in post-Cold War reconciliation; "Was your town marked for destruction? That story and more, tonight at 11:00."). Similar to SuperPower's system, all participants should have the opportunity to "push the button" should nukes be launched.

      The details are: How is it known that a nuke's been launched? How is it determined who launched first or can that be determined? How is the currect threat from non-state actors simulated? The biggest detail is, of course: What happens?

      I think it ought to be an Endgame scenario, a sort of "Wow, you guys screwed up royally!" final video. Although it's dark, Civ has never really faced up to the Apocalypse prospects of human civilization. It would be a nice threat to hold over all those war mongers out there.

      All the more so if an online Hall of Fame is developed that will keep track of habitual "nuclear holocaust civvers"
      "The human race would have perished long ago if its preservation had depended only on the reasoning of its members." - Rousseau
      "Vorwärts immer, rückwärts nimmer!" - Erich Honecker
      "If one has good arms, one will always have good friends." - Machiavelli

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      • #4
        You idea about nukes would be too complicated for civ. Remember, this is a civ game, not Nuke Tycoon.
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        • #5
          Mini-nukes! Mini-nukes! Mini-nukes!

          - I think that instead of having that many types, we can put this simple: there are nukes and ICBM, and you can put them on transport/submarine/whatnot from which to launch it.
          - You want different strengths of nukes: well this is true for ALL units which can be "upgraded" and this is why some proposed having techs upgrades such as "swordman tech-upgrade 1 / 2 / 3", "bomber tech-upgrade 1 / 2 / 3"... or "nuke tech-upgrade 1 / 2 / 3". ICBM could be 3 since we're at it.

          Simple and easy, no need of 5 nuke types.

          And there are mini-nukes
          Go GalCiv, go! Go Society, go!

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          • #6
            I'm for 2 types of nukes, as long as a tactical strike has the same military and diplomatic implactions as a strike from a strategic nuke. Don't include "bunker buster" nukes, I think if there were hundreds of "paralell earths", most would stop them as Congress has.

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            • #7
              I think that nukes are WAY to weak in civ3. Even the nukes that where used againsts japan did gigantic damage and modern nukes are much much more powerfull. Modern nukes should completely destroy everything(including cities) in there radius with the exception of ICBN.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Dida
                You idea about nukes would be too complicated for civ. Remember, this is a civ game, not Nuke Tycoon.
                What does "this is a civ game" even mean when you say it?

                The representation of nukes has improved over the series. Civ3 is the best (unlimited range and all fro ICBMs) so far. But the representation of nukes has over all been pretty lame. Yeah, this is a civ game - you know, a game about building a civilization and fighting other civs. Nukes are a necessary part of the late game because civilizations in the real world actually build them. Yes, this is a civ game which means it should reasonably model civilization in broad strokes.
                - "A picture may be worth a thousand words, but it still ain't a part number." - Ron Reynolds
                - I went to Zanarkand, and all I got was this lousy aeon!
                - "... over 10 members raised complaints about you... and jerk was one of the nicer things they called you" - Ming

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                • #9
                  I agree, Kolpo,if they're going to be units in a game, they should be useful in some situations.

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                  • #10
                    can we say dirty nukes

                    just like the lawyer unit it ctp, but a yellow breif case?
                    anti steam and proud of it

                    CDO ....its OCD in alpha order like it should be

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                    • #11
                      Maybe a terrain improvment called "missile base", like airports; so you can choose: load the missile on an submarine,plane or ship or launch them by an missile base. Bases on mountains should have bigger range,too. And maybe we should have non-nuclear missiles, that should have smaller chances of destroyng units, cause no pollution and lower pop damage.
                      "We, civilizations, now know that we are mortals...", Paul Valéry

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by The Templar


                        What does "this is a civ game" even mean when you say it?
                        New PC jargon in use around here, i.e. to get the meaning substitute "hey now, I am one of the morons that Firaxis is now marketing to, and that makes my head hurt..you don't expect me to actually think about a stupid computer game do you that would spoil the point"

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                        • #13
                          I actually like the idea of a missile base, but one problem is that, if they are visible on the map, and this being a turn-based game, the AI could launch a preemptive attack (without your chance for retaliation) and destroy all of your missiles.

                          One possible remedy is that each missile base could be "auto-targetted" so that when attacked on someone else's turn, it would automatically launch--thus a MAD (mutually assured destruction) scenario....

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                          • #14
                            ...I skipped over all the posts so this may be unrelated.


                            I'd almost as much prefer nukes not to be apart of the game than seeing them used frequently. A nuclear weapon in a game should almost never be used in a game and under only rare occurrences should it occurr (see: real world history). The biggest effect* nuclear weapons has had on the world was the collapse of the Soviet Union due to a collapsed economy, which in some part came from the overexpenditure of funds in weapons - notably nuclear weapons.

                            How does that releate into Civ terms? The use of nuclear weapons should have irreputable effects on the nation who uses nuclear weapons by Civs refusing to trade with them for X amount of years, their own citizens shunning them, and other disparaging factors. Nuclear weapons should be expensive to build and an expensive upkeep, so like the Soviet Union, if you build too many of them your economy (or government) may collapse. The counterpoint method to having nuclear weapons would be to use them in case they were used on you, in which case the "bad" effects wouldn't be as noticable or present.



                            * = yes, the use of the nuclear bomb in WWII is the most gruesome and horrific, but i don't believe that constitues it for being the biggest effect on world history. WWII was likely going to come to a conclusion with the same results one way or another, except the use of a nuke changed the variables of when and of how many more lives would it take?
                            However, it is difficult to believe that 2 times 2 does not equal 4; does that make it true? On the other hand, is it really so difficult simply to accept everything that one has been brought up on and that has gradually struck deep roots – what is considered truth in the circle of moreover, really comforts and elevates man? Is that more difficult than to strike new paths, fighting the habitual, experiencing the insecurity of independence and the frequent wavering of one’s feelings and even one’s conscience, proceeding often without any consolation, but ever with the eternal goal of the true, the beautiful, and the good? - F.N.

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                            • #15
                              come on

                              nukes has been part of CIV

                              Long Live Nukes !!

                              just bring back the wave file from Civ2
                              anti steam and proud of it

                              CDO ....its OCD in alpha order like it should be

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