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LESS IS MORE: scrap the modern age!

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  • LESS IS MORE: scrap the modern age!

    It’s my belief that the Civilization series has always been unable to represent the modern age in any way realistically. This is not meant as negative criticism on the creators of Civilization: it is simply impossible to represent all the different societies in the millennia of human history well.

    Let’s have a look at some basic characteristics of the Civilization series:
    • It’s a tile based game. Production is derived from the land (and seas).
    • Population growth is related directly to food production.
    • Raw materials are immediately converted into finished products, with no steps in between.
    • The player is a god, omnipotent and omniscient about his civilization, and can guide his civilization independently from what’s happening in other civs.

    This is a pretty decent system to represent pre-industrial societies, After all, roughly speaking those are agricultural and the size of the population is closely related to the food production in the area. The economic value added to raw materials to get to finished products is fairly limited, so abstracting that to shields + resources = finished good isn’t too far-fetched. On top of that, most production is for local use, and trade is mostly limited to luxury goods, as anything else is too hard and too expensive to transport over long distances. (Though it would be nice to have a trade route system to represent in-between traders such as Venice, the Dutch and Portugal, who didn’t always control the production – ie in civ terms, the tile the resource is on - but did control the trading of the good to their great advantage.)

    This model can still function to some degree during the Industrial Revolution, as – at least in the colonial period – the focus of governments lay not in promoting free and international trade but in building up their own national and cohesive economy and obtaining effective control of the necessary raw resources. (Though of course here too the period is much better represented by games that focus specifically on this time period, eg Victoria with its factory system.)

    However the system completely fails for the modern (post)industrial societies. To give a few examples:
    • There’s overproduction of food, and population size or growth is no longer related to it, as the economic value of a child has declined, and there’s wide access to contraceptives.
    • Most of the economic value is added in the production process. To say it simple, economic power lies where the factories, banks and research labs lie, not where the raw resources lie, as would be the case in Civ.
    • There’s a very large mobility of capital, and the biggest corporations are multinationals unbound to any country, investing where it suits them best. So the idea of a player-god in control of the entire economy, without any money flows to foreign countries, doesn’t work anymore.

    That’s why I say: Limit Civilization to what it can represent well: pre-modern societies, the age of states and kingdoms! Limit the technology tree to 1945, so that we can still play in the end with tanks, bombers and nukes, but no further. If there still needs to be a space race, make it the Apollo Program and the journey to the moon, instead of a journey to Alpha Centauri, which would require many more techs. Cutting off a piece at the end would allow the game to mold more around the earlier periods, and focus more features on the early areas. After all, that’s the part of the game we play most, as many rarely finish a game because by the end they’ve become so powerful there’s no decent competition left.

    So while on most aspects of the game I’d disagree that “less is more”, here I think limiting Civilization’s timespan to pre-modern times would add to the game.
    Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
    Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

  • #2
    I dissagree, they shouldn't cut the modern age, they should just fix it up a little. And I prefer there to be a near-future (to 2100 AD) in the game also...

    For me the game first starts to get really interesting when getting near the modern times

    I do agree that they should cut out the race to AC and make it to the moon instead, though not as an instant win, just something that gives some extra score...
    This space is empty... or is it?

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    • #3
      I just think that the name "modern age" is dumb. People have called their contemporary society "modern" for centuries, long before there was nuclear power, electronics or whatever signifies the "Modern" age in Civ. The Information Age, Nuclear Age or Space Age would be better names.
      The difference between industrial society and information society:
      In an industrial society you take a shower when you have come home from work.
      In an information society you take a shower before leaving for work.

      Comment


      • #4
        While I agree that the modern age is unrealistic, it does make the game interesting, both from the increase in production to the improved weaponry.

        As for contraception, world population will increse for several decades more, and part of the stabilzation will come from overcowding, rather than family planning: AIDS, dessertification of the SubSahara, and possibly damage or destruction of the Great Conveyor Belt (there is concern that the melting of Greenland's cap will stop the flow of Africa's heat to the Gulf Stream & Europe), making temperature differences greater around the globe. Even if this turns out to be incorrect, calling this "global warming" in civ isn't too far fetched.

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: LESS IS MORE: scrap the modern age!

          Originally posted by Maniac
          It’s my belief that the Civilization series has always been unable to represent the modern age in any way realistically. This is not meant as negative criticism on the creators of Civilization: it is simply impossible to represent all the different societies in the millennia of human history well.

          Let’s have a look at some basic characteristics of the Civilization series:
          • It’s a tile based game. Production is derived from the land (and seas).
          • Population growth is related directly to food production.
          • Raw materials are immediately converted into finished products, with no steps in between.
          • The player is a god, omnipotent and omniscient about his civilization, and can guide his civilization independently from what’s happening in other civs.

          This is a pretty decent system to represent pre-industrial societies, After all, roughly speaking those are agricultural and the size of the population is closely related to the food production in the area. The economic value added to raw materials to get to finished products is fairly limited, so abstracting that to shields + resources = finished good isn’t too far-fetched. On top of that, most production is for local use, and trade is mostly limited to luxury goods, as anything else is too hard and too expensive to transport over long distances. (Though it would be nice to have a trade route system to represent in-between traders such as Venice, the Dutch and Portugal, who didn’t always control the production – ie in civ terms, the tile the resource is on - but did control the trading of the good to their great advantage.)

          This model can still function to some degree during the Industrial Revolution, as – at least in the colonial period – the focus of governments lay not in promoting free and international trade but in building up their own national and cohesive economy and obtaining effective control of the necessary raw resources. (Though of course here too the period is much better represented by games that focus specifically on this time period, eg Victoria with its factory system.)

          However the system completely fails for the modern (post)industrial societies. To give a few examples:
          • There’s overproduction of food, and population size or growth is no longer related to it, as the economic value of a child has declined, and there’s wide access to contraceptives.
          • Most of the economic value is added in the production process. To say it simple, economic power lies where the factories, banks and research labs lie, not where the raw resources lie, as would be the case in Civ.
          • There’s a very large mobility of capital, and the biggest corporations are multinationals unbound to any country, investing where it suits them best. So the idea of a player-god in control of the entire economy, without any money flows to foreign countries, doesn’t work anymore.

          That’s why I say: Limit Civilization to what it can represent well: pre-modern societies, the age of states and kingdoms! Limit the technology tree to 1945, so that we can still play in the end with tanks, bombers and nukes, but no further. If there still needs to be a space race, make it the Apollo Program and the journey to the moon, instead of a journey to Alpha Centauri, which would require many more techs. Cutting off a piece at the end would allow the game to mold more around the earlier periods, and focus more features on the early areas. After all, that’s the part of the game we play most, as many rarely finish a game because by the end they’ve become so powerful there’s no decent competition left.

          So while on most aspects of the game I’d disagree that “less is more”, here I think limiting Civilization’s timespan to pre-modern times would add to the game.
          Your kidding right? This would be the biggest mistake ever to be made in the CIV series to leave out the modern age. Man, would that PO this community. Come on now, you can do better then this... give some good ideas here.
          -PrinceBimz-

          Comment


          • #6
            I don't want the Modern Age to be cut out entirely (though I'd prefer if they invented better mechanisms for the said problems), though I have to admit that I rarely play games that long...

            Comment


            • #7
              The modern age needs less micromanagement, that means scrapping workers and single unit combat.

              As WesW said, the game should get harder as it goes on, not easier, that would also help to make the modern age more interesting, instead of the boring mop-up fest that it is now.
              Call to Power 2: Apolyton Edition - download the latest version (12th June 2011)
              CtP2 AE Wiki & Modding Reference
              One way to compile the CtP2 Source Code.

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              • #8
                I for one wouldn't notice the removal of the modern age as I can't remember a time when I've played up to it. Maybe I've built one or two nuclear submarines in my entire Civ career!

                Oh, and home $ less is definitely home $ more
                regards,

                Peter

                Comment


                • #9
                  Modern age is pretty bad but really all the ages get worse as you advance. I have the most fun in the first age generally.
                  Eschewing obfuscation and transcending conformity since 1982. Embrace the flux.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sorry for the absence of any replies from my part. It's just that I'm in the middle of my exams.

                    Some quick comments:

                    Originally posted by realpolitic
                    As for contraception, world population will increse for several decades more, and part of the stabilzation will come from overcowding, rather than family planning:
                    The population growth today is mainly coming from third world countries. In civterms those aren't yet in the modern age. My post only applies to the (post)industrial countries, the great powers of today's world.

                    Originally posted by PrinceBimz
                    Your kidding right? This would be the biggest mistake ever to be made in the CIV series to leave out the modern age. Man, would that PO this community. Come on now, you can do better then this... give some good ideas here.
                    I'm sure we could come up with a decent way to represent the modern age. However that would require more than a few tweaks to the game. And we've heard enough Civ4 will be a conservative sequel, with slogans used such as "Simplify, simplify, simplify" and "less is more", which I quoted here. So you have to be realistic: Firaxis isn't gonna implement anything that would dramatically change the game. Therefore the best possible solution we can hope for seems to me to simply scrap the modern age.

                    Nevertheless, after my exams are done, I'll see if I find the time to write down some (IMHO not too radical) ideas to improve the modern age. Not that I expect them to be implemented of course.
                    Contraria sunt Complementa. -- Niels Bohr
                    Mods: SMAniaC (SMAC) & Planetfall (Civ4)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by pg
                      Modern age is pretty bad but really all the ages get worse as you advance. I have the most fun in the first age generally.
                      This is always true, in any game, as long as the MM gets more with the empire growing. It gets worse in Civ, in RTW, in MOO, you name it. But I don't think it's the very idea of a Modern Age, it's more the bad interface, that makes you do more and more tedious things as game progresses. So, a simple note to the designers: make useful automation options.
                      Seriously. Kung freaking fu.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        No, NO, NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                        Again, I probably find myself in the minority, but I kinda like the modern age. Yes, it could be improved -- especially worker hordes and a bit more sophistication in the combat relationships between artillery/tanks/air power.

                        But I agree that fixing it up is far more preferrable to scrapping it.
                        Haven't been here for ages....

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I agree 100% with Maniac!

                          The few times i get to the modern times in CIV3 i usually get tired of the game pretty quickly. It just feels tedious.

                          Slower techs, so you don't end up inventing things long before what was done in reality, and end at WW2. Sounds great!

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            The population growth issue can be solved by changing how populations grow in Civ. The simplest and best way would be to have population grow regardless of food production-set up a population increase formula based on the basic real factors, mortality rates, fertility rates. This allows for populations to outgrow food production and possible starvations and internal problems (making the game more challagenging, since the issue is trying to make sure you grow enough food to handle the people). If you incvlude disease seriously, then this is what helps keep populations in control and relatively low until tech changes and modern imporvements in sanitation and medicine allow for there to be a population explosion, forcing the playet to deal with the opportunities and problems of this.

                            ON the issue of units, a public works system and combat by armies, not units, fixes that.

                            The economic criticism would in theory really apply to economics in the game in general- the fact is that governments today have even greater control of the economy, even in capitalist states, than they ever had before- heck, people could print their own legal tender until just a few centuries ago. The modern world has far more economic regulation and control than say in 1700, because while things grow more complex, the ability of the state to control the situation has grown even faster.
                            If you don't like reality, change it! me
                            "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                            "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                            "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                            • #15
                              You know, people can still print their own legal tender. Legal tender is nothing more than a piece of paper which "promises to pay the bearer the sum of X in commidity Y". In the days when wealthy merchants and banks routinely did this, the legal tender was only worth as much as the bank or merchant's reputation. these days, legal tender is only worth as much as the nation's reputation.

                              Incidentally, cheques are a direct outgrowth of that renaissance era tradition of printing your own money. So in a sense, everyone still does it.

                              Except in Japan of course, which has some of the most primitive banking facilities I have ever seen outside of Africa.
                              The sons of the prophet were valiant and bold,
                              And quite unaccustomed to fear,
                              But the bravest of all is the one that I'm told,
                              Is named Abdul Abulbul Amir

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