My #1 Request...

[Kuciwalker]

My #1 Request...

BRING BACK EVENTS!!!!

I would buy it if it were just C3 with events.

[Ijuin]

Originally posted by Sn00py
Can you elaborate on what Finite State Machines are?

A finite state machine is any machine in which you can define in advance EVERY possible valid input and output. In other words, there are a finite number of states that the machine can be in, and you can conceivably program the machine's response to each one of them. The problem with a finite state machine is that it can not handle any input that is not on "the list" of accepted inputs, but the advantage is that you can cover all possible responses to inputs that ARE on "the list".

A good example of a finite state machine would be one that plays tic-tac-toe (noughts and crosses to you British Commonwealth people). There are only so many ways that such a game can go--and it is possible to program a computer for all of them.

On the other hand, a game like Civilization has many hundreds of different things that could happen each turn, so by the fiftieth turn or so there are more possible scenarios than their are atoms in the universe. This makes it impossible to program for every single possibility.

The alternative, then, is to use an "open state machine". Open state machines are meant to "learn" and "think" after a fashion inasmuch as they don't have rigidly predetermined responses to every input. The disadvantage is that nobody has yet brought open state machines to the level where they can outcompete a human opponent without using massive processing power (such as Deep Blue) to consider thousands of possible moves at a time.

[joncnunn]

I'm a programmer by trade, AI is the toughest field in computer science. Yes, I agree that that making it multiplayer first before coding the AI is the way to go though.

Each game in the Civ series has seen progressly less cheating by the AI combined with more intelgent play, but there's still some obvious improvements that could be made.

The most obvious is the AI doesn't know how to tweak the science bar to minimize wasted beakers, but I would much prefer simply allowing the excess beakers to count toward the next tech for everybody like Civ II & SMAC. This would necesatate elimation of the can't get the tech until the 4th turn no matter how much you reserach and the granted the tech for free if you've been put at least 1 beaker towards it for 50 turns, but I don't like those features either. I do like different techs costing different amounts and also the reducation in beakers needed when you know others have it.

The AI has complete knowelge of all tiles it's previously explored should be elimenated simply because the AI can't even cheat intelgently with this.

Firaxis should consult with ET for the AI portions of should I change my government now & Forbiden Palace placement.

Rather than teach the AI to abandon my capital to get a new one for free (either with the abandon button or the building of settler/workers), I'd prefer disallowing that entirely.

The bigest overall section that the AI needs improvement is seeing the big picture. Currently the trade minister rountine does not talk to the military minister routine or vice versa. Perhaps making trade deals that expired early due to war simply be suspended with interest accuring like SMAC would help some, but really the trade minister has no business granting a tech for 50 GPT when it's military minister already has the sneak attack force in route against that player.

The other area is that the AI sems to be failing to see the big picture is that it seems to be unwilling to attack a healthy defending unit when chances of the first attacking unit in a stack winning are slim but chances of the second attacking unit winning are excelent, and the rest would be in perfect health. I call this the General McC syndrome, after the General in charge of the Union Army in the first half of the US civil war.

[Hasdrubal]

AI is everything.

All the other new features are mere cosmetical by comparison. I'd settle for a Civ I rerelease with a killer AI if that's what it takes...



And MP is not an option for those of us with real life responsibilities. I cannot possibly coordinate tens of hours of free time with seven other people, nor am I interested in strategy games that don't require that amount of time.

[Cmonkey]

Originally posted by Max Sinister
If you think you're able to build a better AI than Firaxis, you can try it yourself with the Python engine.

Most likely, I will.

Originally posted by Max Sinister
BTW, I'm into AI myself and FSMs are NOT the non-plus-ultra of AI. That's because they're essentially nothing but scripts. Once you knew how they work you could try to find loopholes and win by that way.

If you know how to use them to take advantage of their strengths, you can easily avoid the "scripted" feel of the AI.

Originally posted by Max Sinister
Ah, and you will need more differences between player civ and non-player civ than a boolean. That's because the player will make his inputs with mouse & keyboard, while the AI had to do it different.

That was merely one way of storing the difference. It all depends on how the rest of the system is designed. If designed correctly that is the only information needed in the CIVILIZATION structure to show whether the player is an AI or human. Sometimes I think you people really can't comprehend English.

Originally posted by Trip
Soren has a masters in Comp Sci. I trust him to do whatever he needs to make a great AI, and I trust that he knows how to.

I dont.

-Edit - fixed formatting error.

[Max Sinister]

Originally posted by Cmonkey
That was merely one way of storing the difference. It all depends on how the rest of the system is designed. If designed correctly that is the only information needed in the CIVILIZATION structure to show whether the player is an AI or human. Sometimes I think you people really can't comprehend English.

Well, as a matter of fact, English isn't my native language, but I thought it's good enough to understand the people here.
Maybe it's possible to program it that way, but I doubt it's the smartest way. I wouldn't do it that way.

[punkbass2000]

Originally posted by Cmonkey




Can you not read? Rule #1:

Design/code the game to be multiplayer to start.

Key words there DESIGN/CODE & START. If I'm not making the game from the start, how the hell am I supposed to fix what Firaxis screws up?

Well, that's a nice copout. 'I'm going to make lavish claims and then deny their possibility because it will be screwed up by other people first before I get a chance.'

[Max Sinister]

And besides, why multiplayer first? If you only can play the game if every civ is played by a human, it will be difficult to play it actually...

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Cmonkey
I dont.

Well, if that's the case I don't see why you're waiting around for a game made by people who you lack confidence in their ability.

[Cmonkey]

Originally posted by punkbass2000
Well, that's a nice copout. 'I'm going to make lavish claims and then deny their possibility because it will be screwed up by other people first before I get a chance.'

It's not a copout, as I said previously...

Originally posted by Cmonkey
Most likely, I will.

Though, it all depends on how "open" the scripting language is as to whether I can attempt to do a FSM model in the manner I am thinking of. Most likely, I believe, it will not be possible. Even so, I'll almost certainly get into it and take it for a spin anyhow.

Originally posted by Max Sinister
And besides, why multiplayer first? If you only can play the game if every civ is played by a human, it will be difficult to play it actually...

The point of designing the game this way, is to learn how a human would play the game and design the State Machine to use the strategies developed by the human players. This is for the developer's benefit, because I'm almost certain that half the people, or more, who developed civ3, never played it.

Originally posted by Trip
Well, if that's the case I don't see why you're waiting around for a game made by people who you lack confidence in their ability.

I'm not waiting around for Civ4... in fact, I already know I'm not going to buy it.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Cmonkey
I'm not waiting around for Civ4... in fact, I already know I'm not going to buy it.

Well, good for you.

But don't mind us while we're having fun.