Civ IV will have a 3D map! A discussion of possibilities

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova

Save for the 8 corners where you can go north, east and south and end up at your starting location. :/

Drachsor: It may look like a sphere, but try combining the hemisphere in your link with itself to produce a sphere.
You'll notice that it doesn't quite fit.

That sphere has a line of squares going around the equator.
Each square has a neighbour on both the north and south.
That in effect creates a series of bands, which can only end up as having the same # of squares around the equator in a small circle around the pole.
It is, in effect, a distorted cylinder.

Right, the cube wouldn't quite work, it was an idea that occured to me briefly and I just wrote it down. When I was out at a friend's I realized it would need to be modified, as the corner squares only have 7 squares around them.

As for the example I gave, now that I look at it again, it has the same problem as the square. As you move up from the equator, you have less squares in each band (notice the vertical lines). So there will be squares that have north/south/east/west neighbors, but are lacking in diagonal neighbors. Basically, then, we can handle a sphere quite easily if we are willing to give up some diagonal neighbors.

Hmm, I am not sure if there is a way to map a square or hexagonal grid to sphere without having more or less neighbors in some areas.

-Drachasor

[Enigma_Nova]

Make a big ass sphere of LEGO if you're willing to give up diagonal neighbours.
Problem is, then you'd have some tiles connected to 9 others :/

Then again, there is no way to fit squares around a sphere without introducing errors like that. I say learn to live with it - it will make for a better game.

...I hope they allow us to realign the map instead of having it fixed so that up is north...

[lajzar]

Using teh current civ map style, we can implement the following shapes:

Flat - no wrapping
Cylinder - wraps around sides
Doughnut - Wraps around sides and top/bottom

We could also implement a sphere. This would require wrapping around the sides. In addition, as units go closer to the poles, the movement cost should decrease when going east-west. The exact formula can be calculated based on latitude and some sine equations.

the main disadvantage with that is that it'll play havoc on path-finding algorithms.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by General Ludd
It's still going strong with Dominions 2.

Well, I'm obviously speaking generally. There are exceptions to every rule. The principle remains the same.

[FrostyBoy]

Why is this even being discussed? Firaxis already have a working engine and have moved onto the actual game.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Trip
3D allows the zooming to be much more clear and concise. If you look at Civ 3's zoom then you'll see the problem - the map scrolls slowly there's only a couple levels and it doesn't look at that nice. Doing the map in 3D allows many more zoom levels to be implimented rather easily, and they'll all look just as good as any other, just bigger or smaller.

And that's not all 3D does - it makes it easier on the developers, because instead of creating objects in 3D and rendering them back to 2D (like they did for Civ 3), they can keep them in their native format, which look better and are also more flexible to use in game (rotating, zooming again, etc.).

Chrome and more chrome.

3D map must have an actual function in play other than to just looking good. I won't support it otherwise.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Enigma_Nova
Why do you even need a Grid, anyway? Give stuff a movement radius and run it as vectors.

Nothing wrong with a grid. A coordinate system is just a grid of arbitrary precision. The problem is overlaying planar figures on solids.

What should be done is to get rid of the planar figures and use a coordinate system. That will simplify a lot of things and movement can be as precise as you want.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Sn00py
Why is this even being discussed? Firaxis already have a working engine and have moved onto the actual game.

I hope they use a better engine than Civ 3.

[Zeiter]

I guess we just need to accept the fact that Civ4 is getting a 3D map solely for mainstream audiences. I mean, sure us hardcore civ gamers would be just fine with keeping the 2D (as long as the actual gameplay is improved - that's what we mostly care about! ). But mainstream gameplayers pay less attention to the actual gameplay and much more attention to the bells and wistles (the graphics and such). That's where the impetus for the "3D" map is coming from. So I don't think we should expect any huge gamplay ramifications from this - just improved graphics, that's all (sadly). It is in Firaxis' best interest to keep drastic risk taking and innovation to a minimum and to keep the new Civ as simple and "casual gamer friendly" as possible. The spherical worlds, while fascinating to ponder, look to be out of the question.

Does anyone have a model of a buckminsterfullerene molecule? I believe that could be a basis for a grid on a spherical world, maybe. Much too small though (only 60 atoms). But if it could be enlarged.

I actually think Enigma has the right idea with just forgetting the grid and using vectors. On a spherical world too!

[Enigma_Nova]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
What should be done is to get rid of the planar figures and use a coordinate system. That will simplify a lot of things and movement can be as precise as you want.

I was thinking of something like that.
Co-ordinate systems based on vectors, rather than entries in a database -
so you have a Vector which points to a base, rather than 'base' being linked to (62, 54).

... How come the staff gets to make a triplepost ...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Zeiter
It is in Firaxis' best interest to keep drastic risk taking and innovation to a minimum and to keep the new Civ as simple and "casual gamer friendly" as possible.

No! It's not dumbing down is it? Say it ain't so.

[Enigma_Nova]

It's dumbing down. Firaxis is becoming mainstream. Repent.

[Leland]

Originally posted by Drachasor


My understanding is that there will be a tile system, so it will have to be worked in somehow.

Getting rid of the tile system is a massive change, and would require a lot of diverences to the game, I think. Maybe in ciV or ciVI, but it is too much for cIV....at least considering the other changes I'd like to see.

Well, I was originally just commenting your suggestion that it could be possible to hide the distortions of a spherical map somehow and that it requires a tileless system. So if we stick with tiles, the idea is not workable because the distortions are not in the just on the visual map on the screen, but in the game model itself. On the other if the game model is tileless, and we force some sort of pseudo-tiles on the visualization of that model, then we lose information and get strange effects like unit jumping between tiles when the player scrolls the map. Not to mention that it would be at least as massive a change as having a fully tileless game.

[Drachasor]

No, you can avoid people jumping tiles pretty easily. You just have an abstract map with vertices and connections.

For square tiles every vertex has a connection to 8 other ones, for hex tiles every vertex has a connection to 6 others.

The engine just applies that abstract map to a spherical mold, and tries to make it look like the tiles are all the same size when you take a peak. I'll look through my mathematics books to see if I can develop a proof on this. My studies haven't focused on this branch of the field.

-Drachasor

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Chrome and more chrome.

3D map must have an actual function in play other than to just looking good. I won't support it otherwise.

I'll repeat: it also makes things easier on the developers, allowing more time to work on other things for the game.

Is that good enough for you?

Graphics obviously have some bearing on the enjoyment people get from a game. Sure, you'll have people claiming that they could live with Civ 1 graphics with a better engine, AI, etc. but graphics isn't an issue that's ignorable. I don't think anyone would be willing to play Civ IV with the command prompt being the sole user interface.

And the fact is, 3D graphics will look better. Look at the Pirates screenshot. Adapting something like that into Civ 4 would be awesome (as long as the feeling of the game is preserved, of course, but that's implied).