Python/XML Scripting

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
Python?

Does that mean the game will be written in Python for a 20x performance hit?

No. The interface is written in python, and the map generator, and possibly a few other things. If they wrote the entire game in python they'd have to open-source it, unless there's a compiled version.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
unless there's a compiled version.

There is. Performance isn't even that bad, though I doubt you could reasonably design a fully 3D game environment with it. For the trivia freaks, some large (or largish) commerical applications such as bittorrent and much of Google's software (including Gmail and Google Maps) have been coded in Python.

But stop responding to 15-month-old posts, it's not like those people are still following this thread

[Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS]

Originally posted by binTravkin
Well, what can I say, Mike Breitkreutz is surely one of those "uber-programmers" who think everyone around are just idiots who don't understand the importance of his work.
Have been working with such as I am a programmer myself.

I can say that I will be all-in for modding this and I have the expierence and knowledge for it.

Also, Trip, if there are any other people in Firaxis who don't think volunteeristic modding can lead to anything good, let them visit Paradox Entertainment Forums and see what "user-developer interaction" and "powerful modding" mean.

Each game of the historical simulation series [Crusader Kings, Europa Universalis(2), Victoria, Hearts of Iron(2)] has it's own community-made mods which actually are the most played versions of those games, one of the best examples being AGC-EEP mod for EU2.


At least from what's breedin in SMACX community, it seems we will be aiming for something similar if Firaxis doesn't plan SMAC2 in near future.

It seems everyone remembers the quote but no one remembers the context... I was referring to scripting languages vs. a visual editor.

While scripting languages are a powerful tool for programmers, not everyone is a programmer. There are many people who would like to edit a game or make mods who have no idea how to use scripting languages and any sort of programming makes no sense to them. I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language; something akin to Starcraft's trigger editor. With such a custom tool, the rules of the various scripting languages could be more enforceable by restricting the user from creating situations which would be problematic for the game or that the would cause the game to be unstable.

So as you can see, I am not against allowing users to mod the game; I just feel that scripting languages are too limiting for the average user who lacks programming ability.

The problem with such a custom tool, however, is the amount of time it takes to build it. Not only does the game have to support the underlying (possibly custom) scripting language, but the tool has to be created, debugged, and tested almost as extensively as the game. And unlike traditional editors, it would generally not be used as much by the developers as they actually are programmers and would tend to just write the code directly. Therefore, the editor would probably not be as robust as it could be. As there never seems to be an abundance of time available during game development this is generally not cost effective.

Hence we have scripting in Civ4. It's quite powerful but you have to know a bit about how to program.

[Solver]

I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language; something akin to Starcraft's trigger editor.

That's a very good goal, but something you can only try to approach, for a visual tool will never give you the same power that a fully fledged scripting language especially in the case of Civ4, where the language used is Python, which is a complete language in its own right.

Another advantage is that withs scripting the modders who ARE programmers can immediately start doing it.

It seems everyone remembers the quote but no one remembers the context...

That's the fate that comes to all famous people . BTW, nice to see you, Mike!

[H Tower]

Should we be declaring September 1st, Firaxis Visitation Day?

[MarkG]

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS
It seems everyone remembers the quote but no one remembers the context...

isnt it always that way?

glad to see you posting again mike

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS
I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language;

I see where you're going, but the thing is that that's pretty damn close to impossible. Either you restrict the user so much that the tool is very limited that and doesn't nearly approximate the usability of a scripting language (someone had a shot of designing such a thing for CtP2 and that was pretty much the result), or you make it so open that it's still gonna take some effort to learn and it will still allow the user to 'create bugs' -- to use your infamous quote (E.g. it would have to have loops but it's pretty hard to detect and prevent infinite loops).

restricting the user from creating situations which would be problematic for the game or that the would cause the game to be unstable.

The worst that could is happen is that the game would crash. Of course that's something that you want to prevent under all circumstance if you're a developer, but if by allowing the user to crash the game every now and then you also allow him to do wonderful things with it that can't even imagine when desiging the game, that's a sacrifice worth serious consideration (and we're all happy to see that was done for Civ4 )

Also, a scripting language doesn't have to be usable by all users. In my experience, those who can't use it will typically stear well clear of it -- as the mere idea of programming is intimidating to many people who've never done it (don't ask me why, but I've found that to be the case) -- while those who can use it can provide great diversity and keep a game alife long after the designers moved on to making other games (see the CtP games, which are still intensively being modded and played today). And if you provide a multi-tiered system as Civ4 does, everyone will be able to get something out of the modding capabilities.


Nice to see you again though

[sophist]

Originally posted by Nikolai
I have no experience in programming at all, but I hope to understand something... But it sounds from what you write that AI is nothing for me then...

Heh... It would be nice to be able to do something with the game, I hope I have the brains for this...

The best thing for you to do is to learn programming in general. Come up with little tools that would be useful for you. The ideal learning project is one that is useful at a very primitive state, but can be elaborated and extended in many different ways. Programming isn't fundamentally hard, but it does require a shift in perspective that does not come naturally to many people.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
No. The interface is written in python, and the map generator, and possibly a few other things. If they wrote the entire game in python they'd have to open-source it, unless there's a compiled version.

Python can be compiled to byte code. There's probably a lot of stuff that's still implemented in C++, though, with bindings from Python, either due to performance requirements or because Python doesn't natively do those things. Also, distributing the entire game as Python scripts does not mean the game is open source, as "open source" refers both to the distribution of the source and the license.

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS

I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language; something akin to Starcraft's trigger editor. With such a custom tool, the rules of the various scripting languages could be more enforceable by restricting the user from creating situations which would be problematic for the game or that the would cause the game to be unstable.

In the category of things you know but not everyone else knows...

With the obvious limitations imposed by the halting problem, of course ;-). That means (sort of) that there's only so much that you can say about how a program will react to inputs without actually running the program with those inputs.

A visual editor would always be less powerful than the scripting language directly. Your ability to modify the game would be limited by the imagination of the tool designer. Any editor that surmounted those limitations would be in effect no different from a programming editor.

[Stuie]

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS Hence we have scripting in Civ4. It's quite powerful but you have to know a bit about how to program.

Excellent! This is right up my alley.

[Proteus_MST]

Same for me
The knowledge that you can modify Civ IV to a great extent (as long as you have the necessary programming skills) has really increased my interest in the game

[Aro]

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS


It seems everyone remembers the quote but no one remembers the context... I was referring to scripting languages vs. a visual editor.

.................................

I agree with you, Mike.

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS
Hence we have scripting in Civ4. It's quite powerful but you have to know a bit about how to program.

That's why the Civ community is so great. Just like we have talented makers of units or graphics, we have people who have programming knowledge. I think the fanbase will be able to use these tools as effectively as any group could (except game designers, of course ).

[Jon Shafer]

A ton is certainly possible. Personally, I'm very excited to see what the community will cook up.

[Atahualpa]

Originally posted by Mike Breitkreutz FIRAXIS
I would much rather see a visual tool/editor that gives the same benefits as a scripting language without requiring the user to actually know how to program or learn the syntax of a particular language; something akin to Starcraft's trigger editor. With such a custom tool, the rules of the various scripting languages could be more enforceable by restricting the user from creating situations which would be problematic for the game or that the would cause the game to be unstable.

Another good example, that I played around with a lot was Operation Flashpoint's editor. You could do really a lot and powerful stuff with a few mouseclicks. I think it was some sort of hybrid visual/scripting, IIRC.

Generally, I think while visual tools target a bigger audience and invites everyone to do something, the scripting language invites a smaller audience, but who can do bigger things.
And personally, I rather have a few mods, but which are played a lot than thousands of scenarios that nobody plays. This is better for the community as well, since they get more feedback on their mods and can develop faster. And as we all know, modmakers often aren't the same people who play the mods, so they rely on feedback from players. That said, I welcome the descision for Civ4

[Louis XXIV]

Originally posted by Trip
A ton is certainly possible. Personally, I'm very excited to see what the community will cook up.

So am I. I imagine it will take some time before the really cool stuff is made, but the possibilities seem almost endless.