Kiss

[Jon Shafer]

Keep It Simple Stupid.

Soren won't include massive and complex new systems in Civ 4. Things will be similar to Civ 3 and there will be a few changes that fit within how the current engine already functions.

Keep that in mind when you're doing your brainstorming. Don't go overboard when it comes to new features, like religion, civics, combat, etc.

The most useful suggestions for Firaxis (and the ones that are most likely to be implimented) are ones that fit within the realm of possibility.

[VetLegion]

I'd add - don't confuse simplicity and clarity/transparency.

We can call it "the MoO III observation".

Models can be pretty complex as long as all the variables and their relationships that compose them are obvious to the player.

Causality has to be absolutely clear.

If I remove one worker from the fields, I lose two food and get two luxuries.

If I build a temple I make two people content.

If I have more unhappy people than happy they riot.

And so on. Most Sid prefixed Civilization titles so far have been doing this rather well, unlike MoO III and some other games in the genre.

[Solver]

Well, we are saying what we want in Civ4, and that is some complex models. But indeed, they should be easy to control. and the AI should be able to use them. SMAC was the most complex Civ-game, and the complexity worked against it - the AI was a complete pushover as long as you didn't give it huge starting advantages.

But us hardcore vents don't want to see Civ 4 concepts made less complex than in Civ 3. It's just that for stuff like religion, civics, etc.,, the interface has to be clean (and clear) enough to control everything and give understandable messages on what's going on.

[VetLegion]

Soren, while (I think) an excellent choice for the designer of Civ IV, isn't really a guarantee for its complexity.

It is he who removed much of it to help AI.

So this announcement of Civics and Religion sounds more like "more simple concepts" instead of "concepts more complex" to me.

[Solver]

I'll still be satisfied even with not-too complex concepts as long as the game has a good AI at least as in Civ 3. Though both are preferred .

[Jon Shafer]

Yeah, Soren's not big on complexity. He alluded to the fact that he likes the current level of complexity (in Civ 3). He said for every feature added, one would be removed. So even if its clean and easy to work with, I don't think many complex systems will make it into Civ 4.

Just being a realist.

[VetLegion]

I've been comparing games in the genre ... it may sound surprising at first but the "concept space" of the entire genre is not all that big.

Sucessfull new concepts are what, one per game?

It's quite a challenge to come up with something really unique, so refinement (read: complicating) of old concepts comes quite natural, and is quite common.

In my opinion, the latest really great addition to the genre is "Strategic Resources" concept, and it is implemented excellently in both Civ III and GalCiv.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: Kiss

Originally posted by Trip
Soren won't include massive and complex new systems in Civ 4.

We say what we want, and they implement what they feel like.

If Civ 4 is not something we like, we will just vote with our wallets.

Simple, no?

[Skanky Burns]

Except for the slight problem that we won't be able to tell whether we like what they implemented or not unless we have first played the game. That may involve buying the game.

[Urban Ranger]

Looking at the list of features and playing the demo should do.

[Apocalypse]

If there is a demo.

[Lord_Davinator]

and if we people who spend so much time poring over forms to get a whiff of civ4 can resist not buying it the moment it comes out... activision suckered me into ctp...

[Master Zen]

with all the info pouring out into the forums, I am quite sure that most of us will more or less have a "taste" for the game from comments with other people even if they haven't bought it yet.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Lord_Davinator
and if we people who spend so much time poring over forms to get a whiff of civ4 can resist not buying it the moment it comes out... activision suckered me into ctp...

You spent too much time at the wrong forum...if you'd been at the SMAC forum at the time, you'd know the truth about CTP

[alva]

If you want to make Civ4 more difficult, - IE more of a challenge - stop reading these boards.