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  • The design decision that can have a huge impact

    There is a design decision that can make a real improvement in the way Civ is actually played. The right choice here can, in a stroke, give a huge payoff in making Civ more fun.

    Its terrain improvement.

    Think about what you actually do while you play Civ. Think about the real time you spend doing different things, the decisions you make most often.

    There are fun, interesting activities and decisions. The things you imagine when you think of ruling an empire. What land to expand into, where to place cities, running diplomacy, big-picture economic decisions, technologies to pursue, armies to build, and wars to fight.

    The cool exciting stuff!

    Then, in Civ as we know it, there are the not so interesting activities and decisions. What tile should I move worker #63 to, irrigate this, mine that, railroad everything. On and on and on.

    The drudgery work. The dull, incredibly repetitive decisions that have to be made a thousand times. Some are so mindless they aren't even decisions (like where to railroad, or what to do with hills). They are just work.

    Work that takes time. Time away from the cool, fun decisions.

    Public Works is only a little better. It does at least eliminate moving workers around, which is an improvement. But it still saddles the player i, m, and rr-ing every last darn tile they own.

    Instead take a bold step. Eliminate this whole mind-numbing waste of time and decision-making.

    Replace it with either no improvement or some kind of city or empire-wide improment.

    My suggestion: use techs instead. Have food improving techs like:
    irrigation
    crop rotation
    accurate calendar
    fish net
    terrace farming
    pesticides
    hybrid strains

    Shield improving techs like:
    pit mining
    strip mining
    quarrying
    oil drilling
    off shore drilling

    And trade improving techs like:
    roads
    currency
    trade ships
    banking
    limited liability

    Maybe each tech increases the production of all cities by a certain percentage.

    I would keep roads / railroads (built with a public works system), but only for movement, not trade increases. This is because placing roads to important places is actually an interesting strategic decision, not the drudgery of must-rr-every-tile.

    This will also have the bonus of not turning the map into an ugly railroaded robotic looking mess.

    Whether you like the tech idea or not, please give serious thought to eliminating terrain improvements.

    In a game, how many times do you decide to, for instance, declare war? Maybe a dozen or so. And how many times do you decide what tile to move worker #45 to? How many times do you decide "irrigate here, mine there?" Literally hundreds, probably THOUSANDS.

    Change that ratio! Spend time making fun decisions, not mindless ones!

    Eliminating terrain improvements is the single thing that will do the most to increase the fun of Civ and make it appeal to a wider audiance.
    Good = Love, Love = Good
    Evil = Hate, Hate = Evil

  • #2
    On a lot of "I want" thread about terrain improvement I read about combining the traditional civ engine with the CtP engine. Basically, you would have workers, but you have the option of marking what you want built where, as in CtP.

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    • #3
      BTW: in CtP your improvements get better as ther game progresses, for example:

      Primitive Farm
      "Modern" Farm
      Hydoponic Farm

      In my system, the "level" of the improvement dictates how many workers can work on that square.

      No improvement: 1 worker
      1st level: 1 worker
      2nd level: 2 workers
      3rd level: 3 workers

      Comment


      • #4
        and take away the fun of capturing other civ's workers

        all though they work at a slower rate...
        maybe this should increase the longer you have them, especially if you are ahead in culture


        my .02
        anti steam and proud of it

        CDO ....its OCD in alpha order like it should be

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        • #5
          The way I see it, there is just no way the fun of stealing workers comes anywhere close to the cost of literally thousands of tedious, repetitive micromanagement decisions.

          Its like comparing the weights of a goldfish and an elephant. Not even the same ballpark.
          Good = Love, Love = Good
          Evil = Hate, Hate = Evil

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          • #6
            Originally posted by nato
            The way I see it, there is just no way the fun of stealing workers comes anywhere close to the cost of literally thousands of tedious, repetitive micromanagement decisions.

            Its like comparing the weights of a goldfish and an elephant. Not even the same ballpark.
            This may come as a shock to you, but there are many people who play this game who enjoy making the worker decisions and don't see this as either unnecessary or tedious. Nor do many consider Micromanagement a bad word. I am not one of them; but they are out there.

            I don't really mind the worker actions and although they do get tedious at times, I would probably resent any game calling itself Civilization that does not have workers that you can move around.
            * A true libertarian is an anarchist in denial.
            * If brute force isn't working you are not using enough.
            * The difference between Genius and stupidity is that Genius has a limit.
            * There are Lies, Damned Lies, and The Republican Party.

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            • #7
              Most everybody I know likes workers, so I keep my calvary handy to disrupt their plans.


              Would not hurt me to see them go the way of the lunie bird
              and take the mayor too


              I have yet to try, is it worth it?
              anti steam and proud of it

              CDO ....its OCD in alpha order like it should be

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              • #8
                i don't mind doing all that busywork for some reason. it's just part of civ - i kinda enter a mindless zone and get it done super quick without even thinking twice. that said, i wouldn't really mind if researching stuff made cities auto improve(i'd still like to see all the surrounding terrain change).

                this thread also made me think of a weird idea - what if roads/railroads required upkeep therefore getting rid of the roads/railroads everywhere problem? it'd also likely add strategic and tactical depth to the game if they weren't everywhere and just in certain places. you could have road/railroaded mountain passes to defend, or you'd actually have to think about where to put them so not to make yourself vulernable to a blitzkerg type attack. plus if they did require upkeep you would only put them on tiles which generated a substantial bonus(unless of course you needed to expand your transportation network and there was no else they could go). just think how bland most wargames would be if every tile was roaded/railed...
                Eschewing obfuscation and transcending conformity since 1982. Embrace the flux.

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                • #9
                  Not only that but some improvements are more important than others, so unless there is an easy way of speeding up specific improvements fear more micromanagement with public works style system than with workers. And I can just picture me screaming at some moronic game engine:

                  "HURRY UP WITH THE ROAD TO SALMANCA MY LEGIONS AWAIT ITS COMPLETION"

                  No, not a good thing. Keep my workers, my beautiful workers.
                  * A true libertarian is an anarchist in denial.
                  * If brute force isn't working you are not using enough.
                  * The difference between Genius and stupidity is that Genius has a limit.
                  * There are Lies, Damned Lies, and The Republican Party.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    One thing is that you should be able to automate workers to either exclusively 'road and mine' or 'road and irrigation'. This means no woodcutting or hooking up resources.

                    It is annoying when your automated workers irrigate grassland under despotism.

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                    • #11
                      Then there is always the other trick with workers

                      Pick build road to (city)....option


                      I NEVER GO AUTOMATED other than that



                      anti steam and proud of it

                      CDO ....its OCD in alpha order like it should be

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mad Bomber
                        This may come as a shock to you, but there are many people who play this game who enjoy making the worker decisions and don't see this as either unnecessary or tedious. Nor do many consider Micromanagement a bad word. I am not one of them; but they are out there.
                        I'm sure there are people who think that. And I do not, and am calmly presenting my case against workers. Nothing shocking about it.

                        Sure there will be some people who like making literally 1000s of robotic decisions. And there will be people who do not like it.

                        I believe the wider market does not like 1000s of robotic decisions, and that Civ would sell even better with workers removed. More importantly (to us), I believe that Civ would be more fun with workers removed.

                        I think the case for this is pretty strong. Workers = tedium. Spend time making strategic decisions, not "enter a mindless zone" decisions. This is supposed to be a game of nation building and global struggle, not factory work.

                        Can anyone really argue for "entering a mindless zone?"

                        Micromanagement is a bad word, if the micro decisions are incredibly repetitive and dull.

                        Say a Civ game takes, oh, 20 hours. How many of those hours do you guess workers take up? 5? 10? 15? Even 25% of your game time is way too much for workers.

                        I don't think anyone decides to play Civ thinking "boy I can't wait to move my workers around and mine those hills and rr every tile!"

                        ... but as is, that is exactly what they are going to spend a large chunk of the time doing.
                        Good = Love, Love = Good
                        Evil = Hate, Hate = Evil

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          You ideas would not work nato:

                          1. Getting rid of roads is impossible-a tech that would allow your units the same benefits on every square would be ridiculously powerful, as well as completely ahistorical-how could we cut the roads? IN fact, the same goes for mines.

                          Tedium of micromanagement can be solved with better automation-need to make a road? Tell worker x, we need a road from here to there.

                          The fact is that what you term tedious is in fact the core of empire building:administration. If you don;t like it, automate the workers. That simple.

                          I play civ to build an empire, to simulate building a civilization. That means making roads-that means grand improvement project-the romans are known for theirs roads, the chinese emperor for their canals and walls. If you want a game devoid of that, simple, don't play civ.

                          The solution to the worker tedium is tiehr a public works system, or better automation. NOt I fear your suggestion.
                          If you don't like reality, change it! me
                          "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
                          "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
                          "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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                          • #14
                            i like my mindless zone - it's relaxing... i wouldn't be up in arms if all the busy work left.
                            Eschewing obfuscation and transcending conformity since 1982. Embrace the flux.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by GePap
                              You ideas would not work nato:

                              1. Getting rid of roads is impossible-a tech that would allow your units the same benefits on every square would be ridiculously powerful, as well as completely ahistorical-how could we cut the roads? IN fact, the same goes for mines.

                              Tedium of micromanagement can be solved with better automation-need to make a road? Tell worker x, we need a road from here to there.

                              The fact is that what you term tedious is in fact the core of empire building:administration. If you don;t like it, automate the workers. That simple.

                              I play civ to build an empire, to simulate building a civilization. That means making roads-that means grand improvement project-the romans are known for theirs roads, the chinese emperor for their canals and walls. If you want a game devoid of that, simple, don't play civ.

                              The solution to the worker tedium is tiehr a public works system, or better automation. NOt I fear your suggestion.
                              hi ,

                              seconded , roads are vital and should stay , no matter what

                              have a nice day
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