Civ 4 ideas - Straits and Canals

[Grandpa Troll]

sounds good and reasonable

Gramps

[petermarkab]

My take on canals

The use of canals came to prominance with the Industrial Revolution, mid 18th Century, to transport heavy materials from source (mines etc) to factories, finished goods (linen, flax) to distribution points (ports) etc.
I think rail travel superceded canals around 1830s, Stevenson's Rocket was invented 1829

I'm leaning slightly against canals for the following reasons:

• Historically, the canal 's useful lifespan is around 80 years. This gives around 40 turns of gameplay to build up the canal network and build a fleet of barges before rail takes over.
  
  Is it really worth the micromanagement effort to do this, then to have to do it all again when something better comes along?


• Some people like the idea of allowing their industrial core cities to build naval units. We all know how frustratingly underpowered coastal cities feel.
  
  But if the method of allocating resources to cities is changed from a fixed 'fat X' to a flexible system, our port cities will become more productive.


• The St Lawrence seaway is an example of a series of connected natural waterways and lakes passable to ocean going craft.
  
  I'm all for this, where workers go to a tile with a river at its edge and can "dredge river" thus making it passable to some naval vessels.
  
  Perhaps the river graphic would widen, and the tiles at either side be prone to flooding cf. Mississippi, and extra bridge engineering would be required to cross such a "dredged river"

I am in favour of canals crossing an isthmus like Suez and Panama. This is a positive gameplay element, allowing ships to move quickly between two hitherto separated oceans or seas

• A worker would move to the relevent square and after a number of turns, the canal would be created along the edge of the tile. Therefore canals of this sort could only be created where two land squares and two sea squares are arranged diagonally, like the setup of a Reversi board.

Straits

A strait is an isthmus isn't it? Not sure i understand the added functionality of a strait

ps. Earth circumference = 40000 km.
at map size 160 by 160 tiles, equals 250 km per tile side,
which is 62500 square km per tile.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by petermarkab
My take on canals

The use of canals came to prominance with the Industrial Revolution, mid 18th Century, to transport heavy materials from source (mines etc) to factories, finished goods (linen, flax) to distribution points (ports) etc.
I think rail travel superceded canals around 1830s, Stevenson's Rocket was invented 1829

I'm leaning slightly against canals for the following reasons:

• Historically, the canal 's useful lifespan is around 80 years. This gives around 40 turns of gameplay to build up the canal network and build a fleet of barges before rail takes over.
  
  Is it really worth the micromanagement effort to do this, then to have to do it all again when something better comes along?


• Some people like the idea of allowing their industrial core cities to build naval units. We all know how frustratingly underpowered coastal cities feel.
  
  But if the method of allocating resources to cities is changed from a fixed 'fat X' to a flexible system, our port cities will become more productive.


• The St Lawrence seaway is an example of a series of connected natural waterways and lakes passable to ocean going craft.
  
  I'm all for this, where workers go to a tile with a river at its edge and can "dredge river" thus making it passable to some naval vessels.
  
  Perhaps the river graphic would widen, and the tiles at either side be prone to flooding cf. Mississippi, and extra bridge engineering would be required to cross such a "dredged river"

I am in favour of canals crossing an isthmus like Suez and Panama. This is a positive gameplay element, allowing ships to move quickly between two hitherto separated oceans or seas

• A worker would move to the relevent square and after a number of turns, the canal would be created along the edge of the tile. Therefore canals of this sort could only be created where two land squares and two sea squares are arranged diagonally, like the setup of a Reversi board.

Straits

A strait is an isthmus isn't it? Not sure i understand the added functionality of a strait

ps. Earth circumference = 40000 km.
at map size 160 by 160 tiles, equals 250 km per tile side,
which is 62500 square km per tile.

It is worth it to change a few tiles to move from one side of a continent to another..whereas Rail Roads you have to connect one to another all the way through from start top finish

Thats my reasoning

Gramps

[Shogun Gunner]

Originally posted by petermarkab
A strait is an isthmus isn't it? Not sure i understand the added functionality of a strait

Actually, no. A strait is where a narrow passageway of water which is constrained by two bodies of land.

Straits are actually the opposite of an isthmus - as the strait is water - and the isthmus is a narrow land passageway constrained by two bodies of water.

Same concept, just a photo negative of each other.

[Grandpa Troll]

keeping us straight

now..to convert you to Canals

[Shogun Gunner]

Not to say the ideas aren't interesting, but in my mind Civ seems bigger in time scale and geographical scale.

I would love a Civ game that was so complex that it could be viewed from a very high macro level in terms of geography, strategy, city management, etc. -- but it would also allow the player to drill down to very smallest data elements -- canals could be one of these small geographic elements. Other geographical features like mountain passes, deltas, glaciers, oasis, etc could also be available at that level of granularity.

Along the same lines of micro detail granularity...the player could also direct tactical operations of a battle (ah, the dreaded mini-game dispute), intercede in local economic/social planning, and other assorted micro-micro management features.

I'm not holding my breath for a game like - nor do I think it would be widely popular just because that's what I would like. I can dream can't it?

As I indicated earlier, I think the canals and straits ideas are perfect for a mod - a scenario with the proper geographical and time scale.

[petermarkab]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner
Actually, no. A strait is where a narrow passageway of water which is constrained by two bodies of land.

Alright, its crystal clear to me know

So is the proposal that straits should be allowed, while still allowing passage over by land units?

For diagonally placed water tiles, i agree, but not bridging over a complete water tile.

The width of one tile on a huge map is around 250 km. Where in real life is it more economically viable to build a 250 km long bridge or for that matter tunnel, than have ferry services? For smaller map sizes, the scale gets more ridiculous!!

As for canals, I think i've explained why i don't like the idea, but i'm all ears, so convince me!

night night!!

[Grandpa Troll]

HEY!..HEY!

Go to sleep..and whence you awake..

C

A

N

A

L

S

is what you crave

[petermarkab]

Originally posted by Shogun Gunner

As I indicated earlier, I think the canals and straits ideas are perfect for a mod - a scenario with the proper geographical and time scale.

Yep, I agree with that, and by the noises coming from Firaxis, this should be pretty straightforward to do.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by petermarkab


Yep, I agree with that, and by the noises coming from Firaxis, this should be pretty straightforward to do.

I am kewl with it because what I learned to do with CTP was to make scenarios whenever I wanted a game my way and no one else did

Gramps

[Straybow]

Historically, the canal 's useful lifespan is around 80 years. This gives around 40 turns of gameplay to build up the canal network and build a fleet of barges before rail takes over.

Yes, historically... but we are playing Civ, not History. In an alternate history Europe might have built upon the civic and economic foundation laid by Rome and become canal builders many centuries before rail.

[Max Sinister]

Imperial China also had many great canals, and they used them for centuries.

[Grandpa Troll]

Originally posted by Straybow

Historically, the canal 's useful lifespan is around 80 years. This gives around 40 turns of gameplay to build up the canal network and build a fleet of barges before rail takes over.

Yes, historically... but we are playing Civ, not History. In an alternate history Europe might have built upon the civic and economic foundation laid by Rome and become canal builders many centuries before rail.

Thank you Straybow..another here that understands the generality of the CIV Series..what is,could and may have been concept

Gramps