AI hate fades with time/trade?

[axisworks]

I'm sure many of us have thought of this, so I'll just say it. I wish enemy hatred, either from past wars or from trading long ago with their worst enemies would fade with time, generous trade, or monetary/military aid. I've been repeatedly irritated that AIs that would've otherwise been my staunch ally still kept me in, at best, a cautious regard because I attacked some war-mongering ally of theirs a hundred turns ago. If there were such a thing as resolving dislike for one another through trade/aid, I'd think it wouldn't take more than 2 or three generations of time to pass in the modern era for former enemies to be allies. The real-life historical examples are endless, primarily Germany, Japan, and the US and Russia and the US... though the latter is still being worked out slowly Thoughts?

[Peter Triggs]

The AI leaders do forget about things:

MemoryType: For each type of Memory (of past diplomatic events), the time that will pass
before the event is forgotten and no longer influences the Attitude level 
towards that Civilization. 

MemoryAttitudePercent: Attitude changes based on specific events that have happened. 
Adjustment is value/100. 

See [url]http://modiki.apolyton.net/index.php?title=LeaderheadInfos[/url]

Some (?) of the DiploEvents that the AI leaders remember (e.g., DIPLOEVENT_MADE_DEMAND) can be found in CvDiplomacy.py.

They do appear to forget things very slowly though.

[axisworks]

Which version of the game do you have? I seriously have never seen a single negative point disappear from any AI in any of the dozens of games I've played... aside from the heathen religion hatred and such that disappears because of techs.

[gdijedi7]

It would make sense that they forget, but how badly did you stomp them? If you took half of their country when they declared war on you, I can see where they would never forgive you. Russia has hated me ever since they sneak attacked me and I burninated half their country. (Including their Bhuddist Holy City)

[axisworks]

It's been a wide variety, really. Some games I'll have -16 You Nuked Us! and others I'll have -2 You traded with our worst enemies! from some tech trading I made in the classical era for the entire game... and I'll often play well past the timer or whatever victory I get. "Well past," being a couple hundred turns sometimes...

[padillah]

I'm with axisworks, I've NEVER seen anything ever go down ever.

And I've looked hard, cause it anoys the heck out of me.

Tom P.

[padillah]

Have you looked at those numbers? They are so out of whack! (Unless I'm reading them wrong, which I may be)

I.e. MEMORY_DECLARED_WAR = -300%
MEMORY_DECLARED_WAR_ON_FRIEND = -100%
MEMORY_RAZED_CITY = -250%
MEMORY_RAZED_HOLY_CITY = -200% (it will remember razing a regular city longer than a Holy City?)

MEMORY_MADE_DEMAND = -100%
MEMORY_TRADED_TECH_TO_US = 10%

As for the length a lot of the numbers are in the hundreds... does this mean it remembers for 100+ turns? That's no where near what is needed.

I think I'll do some tests when I get home.

Tom P.

[gdijedi7]

I've had them go down, but only if it was a civ that liked me to begin with, and then only after a while. If you nuke someone, I really doubt they'll forget it (would you?) Trading with enemies is what goes away first for me, generally followed by "you didn't help us!" the smaller the offense is, the faster it is to be forgotten, and the more likely it is to be forgotten at all.

Each computer is different. On my old computer, Civ2 and C&C played totally different than they did on my new computer. I don't know if this will affect the "forgetfullness" of enemy civs, but it might.

[drsparnum]

Perhaps the -200% Holy City is added to the -250% Razed City, so razing the holy city is -450%?

The USA nuked Japan. Let's not even get into whether it was justified, Japan is now one of the USA's best allies. You could argue that, in Civ terms, after the war the USA gave alot of techs and money to Japan to get them back on their feet. But, all I'm saying, is even nuke hatred is erasable in real life.

[axisworks]

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it's -%450. I accidentally did this once in an early game, and it pissed off a religiously-similar ally of my enemy so much they declared war on me.

Exactly, the Japan model for nuke forgiveness is perfect for showing how former bitter enemies can resolve cultural differences and war hate through trade and tech/monetary assistance. Besides, without us dropping the bomb, we'd never have the Godzilla movies [/bad joke]

[Bhruic]

Er, sure, you can get to the point where you are allies. But I'm pretty sure they haven't 'forgotten' about the part where the US dropped nuclear bombs on them.

Or in game terms, sure, they managed to get the pluses higher than the minuses, but it's not like the minuses went away.

Bh

[gdijedi7]

Besides, without us dropping the bomb, we'd never have the Godzilla movies [/bad joke]

Yeah. And if there was no Godzilla, I'd be very sad right now
(I like Godzilla)

Japan has definitely not forgotten Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Perhaps the negatives have reduced, but they are still there. That's ok, we still (kind of) remember Pearl Harbor too, so it evens out. But luckily, there are now lots of positives, so a Civ4 style rematch is unlikely.

[padillah]

Originally posted by Bhruic
Er, sure, you can get to the point where you are allies. But I'm pretty sure they haven't 'forgotten' about the part where the US dropped nuclear bombs on them.

Or in game terms, sure, they managed to get the pluses higher than the minuses, but it's not like the minuses went away.

Bh

And neither is it 2000 years later.

THAT'S what I'm talking about. I'm starting the game, I see France has a city a little close to mine so I take three warriors over and take it. 2500 years later they still have "-2 you declared war on us" in their attitude.

We bombed Japan and came back after ~60 years, why does the game hold such a grudge?

That's dumb.

Tom P.

[gdijedi7]

How are the rest of the attitude modifiers? Have they hated you ever since? Did they hate you before? Is it possible for you to get positives? Are you religiously the same? Will they trade with you? etc.

I went from Civ2 to Civ2gold, and nobody would ever like me for any reason. It may have something to do with your computer and how it calculates the numbers.

[CarnalCanaan]

Originally posted by drsparnum
Perhaps the -200% Holy City is added to the -250% Razed City, so razing the holy city is -450%?

The USA nuked Japan. Let's not even get into whether it was justified, Japan is now one of the USA's best allies. You could argue that, in Civ terms, after the war the USA gave alot of techs and money to Japan to get them back on their feet. But, all I'm saying, is even nuke hatred is erasable in real life.

This is partly the problem with simulated nukes: it's not really agreed upon WHAT happens--politically, economically, etc.--when nuclear weapons are used in war. It's only happened twice and they were weak weapons that predated those available today.

The expansion pack includes something called "vassal states," which may simulate the "submission" of Japan by the United States following WWII. We'll see.

It's more fair to wonder, "How would the world have reacted if the United States had dropped the bomb on China during the Korean War, as McArthur had requested?" I think it's reasonable to assume that the effect would've been diplomatically devastating.