A Suggestion - Religious Tension

[Bill3000]

We all know that the current religious model for multiple religions in a city in CIV is unrealistic. For all intents and purposes, it is best for a civilization to be diverse in its civilizations in the game, even before Free Religion. This is highly unrealistic, and while it is a game, (I myself consider myself more of the gamer philosophy over the simulation philosophy of Civ) I personally think that this is one factor that should change.

Of course, the question is: How exactly could this be simulated in? The most obvious would be happiness modifiers depending on how diverse the city is. Extra modifiers could include a new tolerance modifier (Which probably would be set equal for each religion for the normal game) which would also modify how certain religions would be tolerant of others, and whatnot. State Religion would obviously factor in significantly, probably having the most effect on happiness/unhappiness. Personally, I think that this is almost a must for future scenarios; not including the fact that it will make the Inqusitor mod handy. Free Religion would become more valuable as well probably due to a lessening of the religious tension (Probably not suggest elimination of it), so it would probably needed to be balanced.

Right now I'm just brainstorming ideas about how it should be implemented.

[gdijedi7]

Hrmmm. Interesting Idea it is.

[gingoblin]

I would say each religion in a city beyond the first should add 1 "angryface"

You would want to couple this with one of the "inquisition" mods of course :-) ideally, with some nifty diplomatic effects to make everything sufficiently angsty and [crusade/jihad]ish

you might possibly want to make the free religion civic add extra happiness per religion to offset this -- though I would lean towards leaving it alone, personally.

[Bill3000]

I have found a way to do this through causing a civics penalty instead of putting in a new mechanic. It is as you had said before - one extra unhappiness per non-state religion. Here's what you do:

1) In the Civics XML, change (bStateReligion) from each religious civic from 1 to 0. As well, make all civics in another category (such as government) to have (bStateReligion) changed to 1.

2) There is a modifier called (iNonStateReligionHappiness) - same one that Free Religion uses. Change this to a negative number (-1 for example) to cause unhappiness in all civics but Free Religion.

The reason why the first step is neccessary is that overwise, it will show something like +124567 happiness with non-state religion. There is a downside in which Free Religion can have a state religion now - you could partially offset this by setting (iStateReligionHappiness) to -1, removing the happiness bonus by state religion. As well, I guess you could edit (BuildingHappinessChanges) for the various religious cathedrals to remove their happiness. Et cetera. You mgiht want to change the unhappiness message too. (It'll say something like "We want religious freedom!")

Other than that, it works like a charm.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Ok so the situation we have is

If a religion is == anything && State Religion == none: nothing

If a religion is != State Religions && Civics != Free Religion: +1

If a religion is == State Religion && Civic != FreeReligion: +1

If a religion is == anything && Civic == FreeReligion: +1


If this is what we are looking at then can we build temples of our non-State Religions inorder to pacify them. Monestaries and Cathedrals of non-state religions should be baned fromm being built (but they remain in place when you convert)

[userqwerty]

most of the time the cathedrals and monasteries and other holy sites were converted to the new state religion upon conversion fo the masses

Hagia Sophia comes to mind

was xstian temple complex, became a moscue complex with a paintjob and a few minarets.

so i think cathedrals and monasteries should switch to the state religion of choice

[abman]

Originally posted by Bill3000
I have found a way to do this through causing a civics penalty instead of putting in a new mechanic. It is as you had said before - one extra unhappiness per non-state religion. Here's what you do:

1) In the Civics XML, change (bStateReligion) from each religious civic from 1 to 0. As well, make all civics in another category (such as government) to have (bStateReligion) changed to 1.

2) There is a modifier called (iNonStateReligionHappiness) - same one that Free Religion uses. Change this to a negative number (-1 for example) to cause unhappiness in all civics but Free Religion.

The reason why the first step is neccessary is that overwise, it will show something like +124567 happiness with non-state religion. There is a downside in which Free Religion can have a state religion now - you could partially offset this by setting (iStateReligionHappiness) to -1, removing the happiness bonus by state religion. As well, I guess you could edit (BuildingHappinessChanges) for the various religious cathedrals to remove their happiness. Et cetera. You mgiht want to change the unhappiness message too. (It'll say something like "We want religious freedom!")

Other than that, it works like a charm.

Very useful info! I've also thought about doing this to create more of a dynamic between theocracy and free religion. I've been looking at a civic-based method for removing religions. Anyone running theocracy gets an option to start an inquisition, after which there is a 5% chance in each city each turn that nonstate religions will disappear. State religion buildings could add a bonus to this to make it more likely a religion will be purged.
Any thoughts on this approach versus an inquisitor unit? I just don't want to have to waste time producing a unit to remove one measly religion from one city per turn.

[Martinus]

I think each non-state religion in a city, under Organized Religion or Theocracy civic, should add one "angry face".

There would be no effect in Pacifism.

In Free Religion it would work like now.

Also, in Theocracy, you would not be able to build buildings of non-state religion.

[Bill3000]

Lately I've been looking at the XML files. The civics XML, although flexible, won't offer any limitations to buildings other than modifying happiness of buildings and allowing them to remove the requirements for units that require a building, such as a monastary for missionaries. Probably will require Python at the very least.

When I get home, I'm going to check and see whether the +13455236 happiness bug actually works, or if it is just a text bug. If it is only a text bug, then it probably isn't worth it to disallow the concept of no state religion for free religion to allow the +1 unhappiness to show properly.

And I dunno. I think Pacifism should get the effect as well. It is still the endorsement of a religion. Imagine how a more militant religion minority would feel in a country with Pacficism. Pacificism is pretty powerful already, and you would probably need to add war weariness or something to counterbalance it. (Speaking of which, why the heck doesn't Pacifism do that already? Shouldnt' a pacifist society hate war? )

[Tufturk]

Though I don't know if it can be implemented yet, I think the idea of a religious council would be nice:

With regular intervals, X turns after the founding of a religion, that religion summons a council to determine its relation to the other religions. Since theological matters have often been wholly independent of secular ones, I suggest that the player should have no control over the council. Ok, when summoning, the council randomly determines which religions it has a neutral relationship with, and which religions are deemed as heresy, perhaps with a 50-50% chance. An example:

First, the Buddhist council convenes, denouncing Hinduism and Christianity as heresy, while maintaining a neutral stance towards Judaism, Taoism and Islam. For Buddhism vs Hinduism and Christianity, this could result in the same diplomatical effects that currently exists, while there are no negative modifiers to diplomatical relations between nations embracing Buddhism and those that have embraced Judaism, Taoism or Islam. But there should also be city effects: In cities having religions which wiew each other as heretical, there should be unrest, a chance of religious buildings being burned, loss of population through emigraion etc. Now, when the Hinduist council convenes, it should have, for example, a 75-25% chance of continuing the current religious stance. So, there could be a 75% chance of the hostility between Buddhism and Hinduism continuing, while 50-50% for Hinduism vs the rest, if this is their first council. And so it goes on...

With such a system, there would be less diplomatical tension than with the current system, where every different state religion is viewed as heretical, but the practical effects would be greater. And it would lead to a much more dynamic game with regard to religions, as their stance towards each other will change over time. Coupled with Inquisitors and other ideas, it could lead to some exciting play and effects.

Of course, this cannot be implemented without a chance in civics, so that it becomes possible for civ to live with multiple religions within its borders, if it wishes to do so. Civics that promote religious tolerance could decrease the practical effects of two (or more) "hostile" religions co-existing in cities.

[djpsychonaut]

Originally posted by Bill3000
Lately I've been looking at the XML files. The civics XML, although flexible, won't offer any limitations to buildings other than modifying happiness of buildings and allowing them to remove the requirements for units that require a building, such as a monastary for missionaries. Probably will require Python at the very least.

Even if you couldn't block building of non-state religion buildings, would it be possible to completely eliminate their benefits? You could still build the building, but it would give you no benefits either culturally, happiness-wise, etc. If you did that then no one would want to build them anyway.

[MilkmanDan]

Originally posted by Tufturk
Though I don't know if it can be implemented yet, I think the idea of a religious council would be nice:

With regular intervals, X turns after the founding of a religion, that religion summons a council to determine its relation to the other religions. Since theological matters have often been wholly independent of secular ones, I suggest that the player should have no control over the council. Ok, when summoning, the council randomly determines which religions it has a neutral relationship with, and which religions are deemed as heresy, perhaps with a 50-50% chance.

I kinda like this idea but instead would tie it more to the actions (war/peace/trade) and civic choices. The older labor civics would need a boost for the possible downside from my idea. Slavery would make any nonstate religion hate the state religion. Serfdom would have lesser effect. Theocracy would worsen the effect.

Balance for slavery might be free worker(s) for capturing/razing a city or free specialists from same or a couple free laborers.

[Bill3000]

I tried a different method by allowing all but state religon in the religion column to have (StateReligion) = 1, as it is in the normal game. While in the civic screen, it will still not display properly, it works properly in-game. The only downside to this is that you would need proper documentation as to how many are made per non-state religion, as the text bug would not differentiate between +1 and +2 , et cetera. This is probably in the end, more worthwhile than losing the concept of having no state religion for Free Religion altogether.

[ben_sphynx]

One might add religion specific military units (Benjaminite Slingers, Crusaders, Suicide Bombers, for example), and a variation between the effects of the different religions buildings (some religions encourage thinking, some working harder, some tithing).

One could have particular amnities (happieness penalties) between specific religions when they are forced to exist with the wrong state religion or in the same city. Such amnities could provide happieness bonuses during wars against opposed religions.

Some of the civics could be changed to emphasise increase or reduce the tensions; Pacefism could reduce them, Theoracy increase them.
Slavery+Theoracy/Organised Religion could give you a (small) chance of purging non-state religion when rushing a production with population.

Inquisitors could be useful as an alternate way of removing religions, if they worked like missionaries but in reverse, and could affect other civilisations cities too.
Removing religions from other players could be a great way to make friends and influence people, or to realy wind them up.