[Mod] 12 Ages Mod

[Kidinnu]

Fireb,

Colors are set by Python code in the placeTechs() function of Screens/CvTechChooser.py. Arrows are drawn by drawArrows(); this is a good deal more complex. It looks like what happens is that arrows are drawn for all the OR prerequisites, while the little icons are used for AND prerequisites. Hmm, which would be why XML file is so odd: there's never more than one AND. If a tech has two mandatory prerequisistes, one's listed as an AND and the other's an OR.

[Fireb]

Originally posted by terje439
ok after having played throu the mod once I have some thoughts so far.

Great! Keep 'em coming

I wonder if getting to the Medival is not too easy?

It's pretty easy in the standard game as well, going from Monotheism to Theology after building the oracle, even though there are supposed to be a few thousand years between the two...but the point is well made, the idea of this mod is to spend a (roughly) fixed time in each of the 12 era's, whilst right now you can jump from one era to the next pretty fast early on. Any suggestions on how to 'fix' this?

-is horseback riding set too high in cost?

You really think it's too high? It's the same (approximately) cost as iron working. Both techs give you a strength 6 unit, if you have the appropriate strategic resource. As it's strong, fast, and available early it needs to be expensive to balance the other techs out. Maybe you dissagree?

-do goody huts give too advanced tech? (I got astronomy)

Not sure about this. I'm sure there are settings for goody huts somewhere.

[Kidinnu]

The CIV4TechInfos.xml file controls this: if is 1, huts will give the tech.

Personally, I'd make Horseback Riding cheaper than Iron Working - the former is *only* useful for generating military units, and is a dead-end technology, while Iron Working is part of two important progressions (compass in early-midgame, steel in late-midgame).

But reading the original tech chart, Firaxis actually made Horseback Riding *more* expensive (250 vs 200)? Maybe it's just my bias, since I've been playing Rome today and nonaggressive/non-horse-UU civs for my other recent games.

[Fireb]

Thanks for the colour info Kidinnu, i'll look into it right away

edit - o.k....I've looked at it. Colour is currently defined by whether a tech has already been researched, is being researched, is researchable or is not researchable. As far as I can tell there's no 'easy' way to add era-specific colour coding (other than by limiting the researchable techs).

Hehe. I'm sure if you play against a strong Mongol opponent, and you don't have spears, you'll think that horseriding is way too cheap

In many situations horseriding is pretty useless, but on some (particularly big) maps, It can be much more valuable than iron - particularly if you already have horses developed, whilst you have to gamble for iron, and then mine it if you have some nearby. And if you know your target doesn't have any copper, then it's an extra advantage. As there's no obligation to research it, it doesn't matter if it has a high cost. If you need it, you'll be happy to pay for it and if you don't, you won't need to Just my oppinion of course, I have nothing against making horses cheaper.

Regarding making each age last - how about this idea (inspired from the desert war techs). Once you enter a new age, you have to spend a minimum number of turns in that age before the techs of the next age become available. How does that sound?

[Kidinnu]

Good point. But I believe the draft patch notes said that horses won't show up until you have either Horseback Riding or Animal Husbandry, which will put a little bit of gamble back in.

[Fireb]

Ok. Lol. I'll do something about horseback riding then

[alms66]

Originally posted by Fireb
Regarding making each age last - how about this idea (inspired from the desert war techs). Once you enter a new age, you have to spend a minimum number of turns in that age before the techs of the next age become available. How does that sound?

That actually sounds quite good. Shall we set it at 30 to start testing with?

Email the latest version Fireb, and also let me know where you're at, and let's discuss what needs to be done, so that I can actually help you out a bit.

[terje439]

Originally posted by Fireb
It's pretty easy in the standard game as well, going from Monotheism to Theology after building the oracle, even though there are supposed to be a few thousand years between the two...but the point is well made, the idea of this mod is to spend a (roughly) fixed time in each of the 12 era's, whilst right now you can jump from one era to the next pretty fast early on. Any suggestions on how to 'fix' this?

My point was actually more towards that MAYBE some more trchs shouldbe needed to enter the medival age, but I have no idea if this is doable in any way. It is just that the minimum requirements to enter that age is actually less than what most bronze age societies pocessed of knowledge.

You really think it's too high (horsebackriding)? It's the same (approximately) cost as iron working. Both techs give you a strength 6 unit, if you have the appropriate strategic resource. As it's strong, fast, and available early it needs to be expensive to balance the other techs out. Maybe you disagree?

The intoduction of the stirrup made possible a new way to fight, that is correct, BUT apart from letting the huns gain temporarely control over a vast area, its inpact was not that big. Ironworking on the other hand led to great changes in society. It made new tribes stand out as more powerful, it redistributed wealth, and it made possible, to a much greater extent than bronze, the concept of families gaining control over areas. We now start to see initial "kingdoms" (the term used is usually big man society) expanding and becoming more solid.

Not sure about this. I'm sure there are settings for goody huts somewhere.

Well goody huts are supposed to represent tribes that were not big enough/advanced enough to evolve into a civilization. Well I think that as such there should be some sort of max tech level they can gain, as it is very unlikely that a TRIBE could learn the secrets of code of law or economics.

[Fireb]

You're quite right Terje, there should be a limit, and there's a big difference between 'stargazing' and astronomy

As Kidinnu kindly pointed out, the CIV4TechInfos.xml file controls this: if is tech-goody-hut attribute is set to 1, huts will give the tech, if it is 0, they won't give that particular tech.

According to you then, which techs should/shouldn't be available from goody huts?

Alms, I'll make a few more changes, update the tree (didn't do it yesterday after all), then mail/post it

[terje439]

IMHO the goody huts should be able to provide these techs;
-mining, mysticism, fishing, wheel, agriculture, hunting, archery, animal husbandry, pottery, sailing, meditation, polyteism, masonry, bronze working, monotheism, priesthood, writing, horseback riding, iron working, mathematics and possibly monarchy, alphabet and metal casting

[alms66]

Originally posted by terje439
IMHO the goody huts should be able to provide these techs;
-mining, mysticism, fishing, wheel, agriculture, hunting, archery, animal husbandry, pottery, sailing, meditation, polyteism, masonry, bronze working, monotheism, priesthood, writing, horseback riding, iron working, mathematics and possibly monarchy, alphabet and metal casting

Other than alphabet, I agree with this list. Alphabet is simply too important a tech, gameplay wise, to get for free.

[Fireb]

update

Heres the latest update.

The tech diagram (F6) now correctly shows which techs are in each era, with 2 rows per era (up to the start of the iron age). Once I have some feedback on whether this is fine or not, i'll do the rest.

The file includes:
- The _CustomAssets/xml folder (for those wishing a complete 'install')
- The TechInfos.xml file (duplicated above). This is the only thing that has changed since last time.
- change log (txt format)

Current to do list:
- complete era changes
- complete tech diagram changes
- setup era music/graphic placeholders
- Check tech goody hut flag
- Look at enforcing eras, either through minimum time spent in each era, or through minimum number of techs researched in one era to advance to the next era.
- Anything else?

Note - Mining/The wheel are currently in the copper age...I might move them back to the stone age, as it seems unfair to have different civs start in different ages...any opinions on this?

[terje439]

yes I agree that it seems unfair to let different civs start in different eras, so either change them back to stone age, or give those civs other starting techs.

[alms66]

Agreed. Let's keep those in the stone age, so that all civs start in the same age.

I'm downloading now, and will give this a try today.

-Edit-

I've played through the middle ages once, and have the following comments thus far:

1. I love the new tree layout, it's great, except that Horseback Riding doesn't show prerequisite lines.

2. Priesthood is far too cheap for it's placement on the tree - should we move it back some, or IMO, just increase it's cost. It does allow ALL temples/monastaries afterall. IMHO, this is one of the most powerful techs in the game, unless you're going for conquest.

[Fireb]

re: horseback riding/priesthood

Priesthood: Nothing easier than changing a tech cost...what do you think it should be changed to? (currently 60 beakers). Anyone else have an opinion about this?

Regarding the horseback riding arrow: there was (and still is) only one (animal husbandry) prerequisite. I changed this to an 'AND' link from an 'OR' link, which means that instead of having an arrow, you now get a picture of a cow (top right of the horseback riding tech. box). The reason for this is that the arrow would have had to cross over 2 eras, which means that you have an arrow pointing to/leading from somewhere you can't see, and it generally wouldn't look good. In terms of gameplay, it changes absolutely nothing. If you really want the arrow back though, i'm happy to change it

Of course, as horseback riding enables horse archers, it couldn't hurt to add archery as an extra prerequisite.