Mod Request - Beakers from City Capture

[Backpack]

Someone else posted on another forum about the lack of tech from a captured cuty, and I thought to myself... that should be Modable.

I think it will require the scripting in python, but I'm not sure if this will need the SDK or not.

When you capture a city, the computer checks to see if the Civ that lost the city knows a tech you don't.

If this checks YES, then the script picks a tech at random (perhaps trapping or limiting the selection to techs you have all the pre-reqs for).

Then the script runs a random number generator 1-50, and award 25%+RAND() of the beaker cost of that tech to you.

Then the script pops up a windows and says "You learned some of the secrets of "STEEL".

Of course the percents and implimentation are up for discussion, but this seems like a reasonable thing to add to a big mod.

On the unbalancing aspects of Tech Capture... that can be mitigated by simply turning down the % Beakers award, or Capping the total beakers from capture of a city to 500 or 750 total. (This simulates that it's HARD to hide the blacksmith when you take over a village in 500 AD, but the secret government lab developing Nuclear Bombs didn't have a sign out front "Top Secret War Program Here - Apply within for Tech Pillaing"

Just some thoughts...

[TheWalrus]

Another possibility is that the lower level unit defeating a superior one becomes armed with superior weaponry.

This happened in Colonisation when the native units killed a European unit armed with guns they became a native unit armed with guns

[vovan]

Looks like it would be a pretty easy thing to do. I will look into this for you.

[Sessil3]

This is a cool idea.. I was unwilling to just flat out hand over techs.. but a percentage now.. hmmm

[userqwerty]

i think it is a bad idea overall this will allow to spend the resources building up the army and spnd less on research while plundering research from your fellow civs

[MattPilot]

Originally posted by userqwerty
i think it is a bad idea overall this will allow to spend the resources building up the army and spnd less on research while plundering research from your fellow civs

Just for that reason alone, it is a GOOD idea.

Why only make the "builders way" the path to win. Why can't the "warmongering fools way" be another path to win the game?

This is an awesome idea - and vovan is our man!

[userqwerty]

But it makes no sense.

You are Genghis Khan. you have a horde of horse archers
Incdentally you want .. oh i dont know... Drama.. so you ride to china and pilage a few cities and you get research towards Drama... And you now begin to apreciate the fine points of plays and theatre.

Good one

[Bhruic]

Originally posted by MattPilot


Just for that reason alone, it is a GOOD idea.

Why only make the "builders way" the path to win. Why can't the "warmongering fools way" be another path to win the game?

This is an awesome idea - and vovan is our man!

I think that's the point. Civ IV is (supposedly) about making choices. And making a choice is supposed to have consequences. So if I decide, for example, to focus purely on building, that leaves me with a weaker military, leaving me open to invasion. If I choose to go military, then I have a less developed, or less technologically advanced civilization (but with more military power and land area).

If I can choose to go military AND get technological benefits, then what's the penalty?

Bh

[Sessil3]

Originally posted by userqwerty
But it makes no sense.

You are Genghis Khan. you have a horde of horse archers
Incdentally you want .. oh i dont know... Drama.. so you ride to china and pilage a few cities and you get research towards Drama... And you now begin to apreciate the fine points of plays and theatre.

Good one

Well.. have you ever heard of Kublai Khan? This is a game of generations.. civs are not flies stuck in amber. The idea that no civ can learn anything from another via conquest is absurd. As is the idea that spies can't steal tech.. and I like his idea of stealing points, not whole techs, for that too..

[MattPilot]

Originally posted by Bhruic


I think that's the point. Civ IV is (supposedly) about making choices. And making a choice is supposed to have consequences. So if I decide, for example, to focus purely on building, that leaves me with a weaker military, leaving me open to invasion. If I choose to go military, then I have a less developed, or less technologically advanced civilization (but with more military power and land area).

If I can choose to go military AND get technological benefits, then what's the penalty?

Bh

Ah yes... but who says you will successfully conquer a city. And then who says you will get enough beakers to make it worth while?

Also, you can't pick the tech you are getting beakers for - it should be random like with Great people.



Getting back to the "choice" thing. It isn't really a choice if only one path gives you long term victory.

[Bhruic]

I should have said before that I'm not against the idea in general, and think the 'points' idea is a good way to do it. My concern was more with making sure it balances properly with the rest of the game.

And I certainly wouldn't say that there is only one path to victory at this point.

Bh

[Error404]

I don't know... I sense there's something I can't catch...

If we follow this thoughts we could say: if capturing a city gives you a boost on a new tech, why discovering a new tech doesn't give you a boost on a new unit? So the first knight costs you 30/50% less...

[Backpack]

On the issue of game balance -
In order to avoid unbalancing the gameplay (and by that I mean tipping the game in total favor of warmongering), we can just use a very small percentage with a cap by age on total beaker award.

Lets look at limiting it to a 25% total progress (Minimum 10% progress), with a hard coded beaker cap per city for each age at 20% of the most expensive tech of the age.

Ancient Cap = 50 Beakers
Classical Cap = 90 Beakers
Medieval Cap = 180 Beakers
Renaissance Era = 440 Beakers
Industrial Era = 700 Beakers
Modern Era = 1200 Beakers

These numbers may appear very high, but they are only proposed Beaker caps adjusted by age of the MAXIMUM award that this might allow.

Some examples -
In the Ancient Era with a beaker cap of 50 Beakers
Masonry - The most you could recieve is 20 beakers. (of 80 total needed)
Bronzeworking - 30/(120)
Horseback Riding - 63/(250) Capped at 50.

Renaissance Era - Beaker Cap = 440
Astronomy Max Award = 400/(1600) Beakers
Astronomy Median Award = 0.1*1600 + (0.15/2)*1600 = 280 Beakers (or about 63% of max award)
Chemistry Max award = 500/(2000) Capped at 440.
Chemistry Median Award = 0.1*2000 + (0.15/2)*2000 = 350 Beakers (Which is under the 440 cap, so that math doesn't even kick in)

Again, This is just an example for discussion (but a mighty fine example).

Error404 -
Actually, by logics reason, the first unit should cost 150-250% of base price. Then there should be a big decrease for units 2-5 down to 100%. Then units 6-25 each get a 0.25% reduction in cost. Then all units after the 25th cost 90% of base production cost.
For easy modding.... you can simulate the whole thing by make the 6th unit cost 110%, with the 26th unit finally settling down to the 100% unit cost price where it stays forever. (But that's a different mod discussion)

Thanks for reading

[Sessil3]

I hate to say it but, at Monarch and above.. the game is already tilted in favor of warmongering. Good luck EVER catching the AI players if you don't gobble some of them up. I like playing Monarch Islands for testing actually, because with their bonuses the AI actually has a chance to become competitive, for a while. Then I eat their souls. But-- on a Pangaea or Continent map.. the souls are eaten much more quickly.. it becomes a matter of survival.
*hiccup*

So given that offense is the best defense, for those of us who like the idea of modding for the higher difficulties, making the game more quasirealistic is probably a better goal than worrying about aesthetics like game balance. I just try never to stack anything in the player's favor.. only to make changes that seem reasonable given the context of the game. my2c.

[Blake]

Looking at python (for another mod idea) it seems to be quite hard to determine what techs players have.

Anyway here is what is involved to make this mod:
1) Maintain a list of techs each player has (unless there is such a list), using the "Tech Acquired" event to maintain the list.
2) When a base is captured by PlayerA, perform a set operation, PlayerB_Techs - PlayerA_Techs (not sure of python operation name), this returns a list of techs which the attacker doesn't have.
3) Select a random tech from that list.
4) use changeResearchProgress to add the stolen beakers.
5) I would propose using a property of the city to determine the beakers stolen, prehaps something like 50+5*Population^2.


What I'm not sure of is how to for example save the lists of techs and such (or maybe they could be rebuilt on reload). Also there might be a better way to get the "tech difference" between players, as for example the diplomacy system obviously does that. But I can't find the function exposed in the python api.