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**Dale** · March 20, 2009, 08:06

Originally posted by PrinceMyshkin View Post

Hi Dale,

I believe there is a problem with the new RS system.

Please let me have a small golssary first, which will help me explain my thoughts easier:

GBP - Global bell production of all cities.

LBP - Local bell production of every individual city.

GRS - Global RS. What it shows on the bar where you can delcare independence.

LRS - Local RS. RS of every individual city.

Outsiders - Units which do not serve inside any city.

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- Since v1.07 GRS was determined by the GBP. LRS was determined by LBP.

Outsiders were ignored.

Actually, pre 1.04 (I think it was) GRS was determined by sum(LRS) / totalPopulation. This caused a massive disparity as the top part of the fraction could never equal the bottom part without massive manipulation to hide dock colonists and colonists outside colonies. Pre 1.08 I changed that to only count colony population thus the equation was sum(LRS) / totalColonyPopulation.

This was much fairer but didn't take into consideration the individual as LRS pre 1.08 was determined by accumulated bell production in the city. The LRS was always a reflection of bell production, NOT CRS.

- In v1.08 GRS is determined by how each LBP is affecting every local area.

In 1.08 GRS is calculated more accurately as sum(CRS) / totalPopulation. LRS is calculated more accurately as sum(CRS) / totalColonyPopulation. CRS is generated by producing bells and various King actions.

Outsides count for the purposes of GRS.

Outsides count for GRS in vanilla and 1.08.

Every colonist gains a random (%) of RS, which is not related with how many colonists a city has, but determined by LRS.

Not correct at all. CRS is determined by bell production and King actions. It has nothing to do with existing LRS.

This system has a problem, which I will explain with a simplistic example.

Sydney has a population of nine, three elder statesmen and a newspaper since 1550. Declaration of independence comes in 1780. From 1550-1780 Sydney produced a very high amount of bells.

King's Town has a poplulation of one. It has always 0% LRS.

Wouldn't happen as King actions would modify CRS.

Unfortuantely, Sydney will not contribute at all from 1550-1880 to GRS. The only thing it will do is increase the size of REF.

It's generating political points.

King's town will keep having 0% LRS till 1780.

GRS will be 90% (9 rebels, 1 tory) from 1550 to 1780.

Doesn't sound too bad. But try to answer this question. What is the most efficient way to have 100% GRS and the smallest REF possible?

Now remember: "Every colonist gains a random (%) of RS, which is not related with how many colonists a city has, but determined by LRS."

All you have to do is have a pair of three elder statesmen and roatate them around your cities!

If you have many colonies, use two pairs of three elder statesmen.

If you really want to push things hard, move all your colonists in a city -they don't have to work inside. Get your three elder statesmen inside a townhall with a newspaper, and wait for 40 turns till they all get 100% RS. Now you can remove the elder statesmen from work and spread all colonists around your cities! This will result in the least size of REF and 100% RS.

Let's go back to Australia now.

In the example before, Sydeny had three elder statesmen and the total GRS was 90% from 1550 to 1780.

If Sydeny had only one and King's town had another GRS would have been 100%!

This is a paradox, because in the first case Australia produced 1/3 bells more, but never rised its RS above 90%. In the second case Australia produced 1/3 bells less, but resulted in a 100% RS.

My suggestions are:

1. Let GRS be detrmined by GBP, and not by LRSs.

Once, LRS is 100% in a town, bells (LBP) should start spreading to other neighbour towns.[/quote]

GRS has never been determined by GBP. And it never should be.
Also, I don't see any logic in colonies affecting the LRS of other colonies. LRS should be reflective of the colonists, not neighbors or it'll be way to hard to track.

2. "Every colonist gains a random (%) of RS, which is not related to how many colonists a city has, but determined by LRS."

This results in many problems.

RS (%) gains should be proportional to the number of units, which have less than 100% RS. Hence, 100 units should increase their RS in a slower way than one unit.

This would result in a need of using more elder statesmen, than rotating the same statesmen around cities.

Sorry but I disagree. If a statesmen gives a speech in front of 100 colonists, or 1 colonists, each individual colonist makes up their mind as to the speech. Just because there is 100 at the first speech doesn't make the message fuzzier.

3. Let colonists not rise RS, if a nation does not generate a bear minimum amount of bells (GBP) as a function of its population.

This would force players to keep their elder statesmen working all the time, rather than in periods.

It will also create the need to put extra elder statesmen into work, rather than using the same three to turn all the population into rebels.

HTH

This just promotes smaller empires, something I'm working hard to avoid.

Remember with the 1.08 system becuase the individual carries the RS (as opposed to the colony) the colonist can be moved and take the RS with them. So if you have a colony that you can't put ES in, then swap the 0% colonists with 100% colonists so the 0% ones can go to the colony with the ES to be converted.

The system in 1.08 (though still with bugs I admit) is a hellova lot fairer and logical than any other system in any of the other versions.

**PrinceMyshkin** · March 20, 2009, 13:10

Unfortuantely, Sydney will not contribute at all from 1550-1880 to GRS. The only thing it will do is increase the size of REF.

It's generating political points.

Dale in my game, I have taken all FFs by 1598.

I have lots of cities with 95%+ CRS, with a newspaper, university, three elderstatesmen and all the goodies.

The only reason CRS drops to 95% is because I bring FCs for training.

The problem is these cities overproduce bells increasing REF.

I have nothing to gain though, since all FFs have been selected, PPs are useless.

Yes, I have about 200,000 PPs and no FF to select!

So I am questioning what do these guys do there? What is their contribution now? They can only harm.

Think of ten towns with 3 elder statesmen, all FFs, newspaper, goodies and tax helping them. They overproduce bells during 3/4 of the game with no gain.

We are talking for an extreme amount of bells, which is not just a waste, but a burden.

Once, LRS is 100% in a town, bells (LBP) should start spreading to other neighbour towns.

GRS has never been determined by GBP. And it never should be.
Also, I don't see any logic in colonies affecting the LRS of other colonies. LRS should be reflective of the colonists, not neighbors or it'll be way to hard to track.

Producing bells in my developed cities does not help my empire. CRS is already maxed, and no FFs remain to select.

Sorry but I disagree. If a statesmen gives a speech in front of 100 colonists, or 1 colonists, each individual colonist makes up their mind as to the speech. Just because there is 100 at the first speech doesn't make the message fuzzier.

Yes, but what if 100 statesmen could give 100 speachies throughout the empire? A newspaper could be shipped and be sold all over the empire.

Above all, I just want to give a reason for players producing bells in their developed cities, when no FF remains available and CRS has reached 100%. A reason like they have a reason to produce food, or muskets.

Saying that do 3 statesmen increase CRS faster than 1 statesman, or do they produce only more PPs?

3. Let colonists not rise RS, if a nation does not generate a bear minimum amount of bells (GBP) as a function of its population.

This would force players to keep their elder statesmen working all the time, rather than in periods.

It will also create the need to put extra elder statesmen into work, rather than using the same three to turn all the population into rebels.

This just promotes smaller empires, something I'm working hard to avoid.

Yes, you have. We are glad you have been here.

But there must be a reason for players to keep producing bells in cities having 100% CRS, or at least not act against them.

As it is, players get penalised by it.

Remember with the 1.08 system becuase the individual carries the RS (as opposed to the colony) the colonist can be moved and take the RS with them. So if you have a colony that you can't put ES in, then swap the 0% colonists with 100% colonists so the 0% ones can go to the colony with the ES to be converted.

I have learnt to use it now. You could have 100% GRS with only three statesmen.

The system in 1.08 (though still with bugs I admit) is a hellova lot fairer and logical than any other system in any of the other versions.

It is. No doubt, it is. We do have one problem to solve though. The fact producing bells in towns with 100% CRS acts against the player than for, if no FF remains to select.

This is why I suggest either LBP to spread thoughout the empire, or REF increases should be governed by different factors (for example number of cities and (%) RS increases?).

EDIT:

Just had an idea, but I don't know if it is possible to implement.

Every time players gather 10,000 PPs, then they get international help. This means some other opposing European power has been convinced to support the voice of independence in the new world - like France supported US- by sending troops. This would compensate the REF increases, due to bell overproduction.

**PrinceMyshkin** · March 20, 2009, 18:31

What the cr..p! I have 357,000 spare PPs by 1620!!!

I wish I could make use of them...

**Aerion** · March 20, 2009, 19:00

Just wondering, Prince. What happens if you just have one statesman per city instead of three?

**PrinceMyshkin** · March 20, 2009, 19:32

Yup, that's what I've asked Dale. I don't think 3 ES speed anything other than generate more PPs and boom REF.

So far it looks to me you should have one elder statesman in your education and revolution centres. This is where you bring them educate them, and the distribute them around as rebels.

Year 1625 now, and I have 406,625 spare PPs! That's a 50,000 PPs gross per 5 years!

BTW Dale, question #2, could you please tell me what's the cap of REF for patriot level?

Sorry for asking a lot!

**Dale** · March 20, 2009, 19:42

More ES generate more RS. Basically, for every 6 bells generated there is a potential 1% rise. So generate 18 bells and you could generate 0-3% RS.

For patriot the cap should be 16.

**PrinceMyshkin** · March 20, 2009, 20:34

OK I get increases of about 38+. REF starts to have monstrous increases.

Does epic speed have an effect? Something is maybe bugged?

My PPs are 456,125. That's a 50,000 PPs generation per 2 years... Really don't know what to do with them!

Let me try post some screenies.

**PrinceMyshkin** · March 20, 2009, 20:55

Here is my last game. Playing always with the large empire style.

I feel though my large scale bell generation was a burden. You can see a total waste of almost 450,000+ PPs.

REF has now started increasing by 40+ units.

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Suggestion about RS on v1.08

Suggestion about RS on v1.08

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