So do I have to massacre my population to win this thing?

[Cort Haus]

I had a shot at an OCC game, to try and simplify things and to get a focus on the LB / Pop Size malarkey for a revolution. I'm one of those old Col fans that is struggling to get to grips with this version with more than a bit of frustration.

As I was switching workforce between specialists for extracting raw materials, production, builds, guns, lumber, food etc I typically had a size 12-15 city with various bods outside swapping in and out depending on what I was doing.

I went the recommended route of not making any LB's until late on, when I had three Statesman specialists ready to start from scratch with Printing Press and Newspaper for a quick dash. At first the % rose quickly, but soon levelled off, even in the city, crawling up at 1% per turn ( I was a bit late in starting as I had been stockpiling guns).

However, the overall % was going almost nowhere until I started murdering my population, and even taking them out of the city to murder them. Eventually I got there, but probably too late to have time to fight and defeat the REF before the final whistle.

Being too slow to start revolting is one thing, and I feel the timeline is too tight in the default rules to be enjoyable, but I was really frustrated by the way that even non-military pop outside the city counts against the revolution. I've seen justifications written about the loyalty of military units to the king, but it seems to not have anything to do with being military. I built enough guns for a 25 unit army and bought & built over 10 cannons, but had to kill half my millitia troops to enable the revolution. Madness.

In all Civ games I've played since the first, the easiest level has been easy enough to beat without resorting to gamey exploits and counter-intuitive tricks, but this game seems to have been designed to be won with some very odd strategies. For example, some strats I've read rely on taking the very guns and tools that you've just hauled over the ocean straight back home to be traded for something else. Or an immediate attack on a native or Euro Civ. This just feels wrong.

Massacring my population as a requirement for the revolution threshold definitely feels wrong.

[armyjournalist]

You shouldn't have to kill off your population to achieve 50% rebel sentiment. The larger your population (and this includes your military and anyone else outside your colonies) the longer it will take to reach 50%, however, I've had several colonies your size or larger and even without 3 elder statesmen per city I've managed to reach 50% within a reasonable amount of time.

Dale/snoopy patchmod v. 1.07 should change the timeline so you get 100 turns after DoI regardless of how many turns you had remaining.

[Cort Haus]

I'm now wondering whether the bunch of colonists on the docks were counting against me. I'd left them there thinking that if I brought them over they'd just be a problem, but perhaps they were anyway.

Thanks for the patchmod suggestion - I should try that.

[Dale]

People on the docks count too.

[solo]

I also tried an OCC game and got stuck at about 45% because I had many armed units parked outside the city.

In the next OCC game I put everyone in the city, even though many were assigned to useless tasks while I stockpiled guns, horses and cannon. This time it did not take much time to get to 50%, and there was enough time after the revolution to conduct and win the war.

Immediately after arming city dwellers after declaring a revolution the percentage of revolters dropped, plummeting well below 50%.

[armyjournalist]

Part of the WoI concept is that your colonists take up guns and fight to free their homeland. You don't need much of a standing army before the WoI unless you're in the middle of a war with the natives or other Europeans, or expect to get attacked and have an immediate threat to your colonies. I agree it doesn't make sense that rebel sentiment drops when you arm your troops and send them off to battle -- maybe they're easily demoralized.

[TimmyKGB]

Even Worse

Is it just me or is the best strategy for beating the final battle to intentionally give up cities to the enemy then attack them?

Its easy to demolish people in cities because you can level up guys/cannons with lots of "city raider". City defenses aren't worth crap in this game(they get insta-bombarded) . The AI also gets a penalty for all the resistance in the city (which really hurts them).

[Hermann the Lombard]

I'm afraid you're mostly right. Cities are basically deathtraps for both sides. The REF has bigtime bonuses attacking towns, and the colonists can build up Grenadier bonuses very quickly. Now it makes sense to me that a European army should make short work of towns due to expertise in siegecraft, but once IN a town they should be hard to evict. Look at New York in the American Revolution...of course that is entirely surrounded by navigable water, perfect for the Royal Navy. The British did not hold Philadelphia, but that had more to do with logistics than anything else.

[TimmyKGB]

I've now played a few games where I was effective without giving up a single city. The key idea is to get the rebel sentiment bonus. Cities aren't about defending, they are about projecting a cone of bonuses (rebel sentiments) into the surrounding tiles. Basically keep a large stack of cav in the city and use the city to attack out of, annihilating any troops that land.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I am old col. pro, won my first game on conquestador at 1780s and didn't lose a single town. Does this help?

The King had 1000 REF but only 33 man-o-war ships, and I had only 50 dragoons there here and 22 ships of the line.

Do the maths outnumbered 20:1 on the land and 3.3:2.2 in the sea!

Keep 2-3 ports, which are very close together. 12 cities are good...

I didn't massacre any of my troops. I just went navy.

If your navy cleans the ships, slowly but constantly things will be getting easier and easier on land. You got to sacrifice 2 ships of the line for one in the beginning and its hard. Then as your ships get more and more experience, it becomes easier. Make sure you keep searching for 2:1 odds in the beginning, and don't put your whole navy in danger. Look for isolated easy targets in the beginning, and chances to hit and return back at your port safe with the victorious ship. You always hit with a n00b ship, and you clean up the mess with the experienced one; till your 4-5 star flagships will be able to take them one on one.

When you take them one on one, and your flagships cannot return in a port, make sure you rest them on a 10% tile defense bonus costal square, then add one 2-3 star ship of the line on top for protection or two (if your ship numbers can afford it...). The 2-3 star + 10% tile defense + 49% from sent can beat a man-o-war. Hence, chances are you will survive with both and seek protection in a port next turn!

Add your generals only on the ships. That helps. It's the ship of the line ownage!

He who rules the waves, rules the game.

Yes, as Tim said. On the land you NEVER defend, you NEVER did on original col., neither you do now! Mass dragoons and take out what dares to land, before they attack you.

Gotta try Viceroy now.

[Cornhog]

How did you manage to not lose any cities? I had all my dragoons waiting a tile off the coast, ready to counterattack, when the King simply did an amphibious assault. There's apparently no (or not much of a) penalty for attacking directly from a ship.

Since cities are essentially deathtraps, I dunno how you could manage to not lose one. In my games the King usually takes a city or two, and I kill his troops while they are marching inland to my other towns.

[wodan11]

I think it mostly depends upon your coastal configuration. By that I mean the logistics of the coast line. If it lays out such that some combination of ship move, city location, landing tile terrain, distance to closest city, move distance after landing, etc etc, then the REF will land in such a spot that you can whomp each wave before it takes a city.

Most likely you'll "pay" for that all game by being further from the Europe transit locations, though.

[PrinceMyshkin]

I block the adjustant tiles with my strong navy...

Also I think it is better to have all the dragoons inside the 2-3 possible targets in the beginning as foot soldiers, and have like 50 wagon trains full of horses.

Foot soldiers inside cities seem to be very strong, if the city has not been bombarded....... but hey ho this is why you have a navy.

When they land at nearby tiles make them dragoons and crash them.

The penalty attempting an amphibious assault equals to crossing a river, which is 20-25%...

If your footsoldiers have all possible upgrades inside cities, veterancy I, grenadier and minuteman, being fortified adding the sentiment and the negative penalty, it should be a death trap for the king, if an amphibious assault is being attempt...

Could you please send me the save, where you get amphibious assaulted and you lose big time?

[Hermann the Lombard]

Originally posted by PrinceMyshkin When they land at nearby tiles make them dragoons and crash them.

If your footsoldiers have all possible upgrades inside cities, veterancy I, grenadier and minuteman, being fortified adding the sentiment and the negative penalty, it should be a death trap for the king, if an amphibious assault is being attempt...

PatchMod takes out the "sudden dragoons" option (though some real mounted troops dismounted to fight).

Note that Grenadier doesn't help you defend a city, it only helps when attacking a city.

Most of the time I keep only a token garrison in a town with my troops poised to retake it, but most of the time the REF lands nearby and I smash them "on the beaches." I don't know what determines when the REF uses amphib assault against the town, it's usually devastating when they do because their city-attack bonuses more than offset the amphib penalty.