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The problem with Sail to Europe tile distance

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  • The problem with Sail to Europe tile distance

    I noticed when starting new games a couple of times that I would sometimes be placed far from land. Also the very eastern and western edges of the map seemed to be the only viable sailing points.

    So I did a little looking into this. The way maps are generated, the four (4) eastern most tiles of ocean are Sail to Europe tiles, and the five (5) western most tiles of ocean are Sail to Europe tiles. Land can never be closer than 3 tiles, otherwise the sailing tiles shrink to adjust.

    This causes some pretty glaring problems. First, sailing distance to Europe should be a primary concern of your first colony. The longer it takes you to get goods to and from Europe, the further behind you get. Second, depending on the distance to land, you can spend many of your crucial first turns looking for land that just isn't there. Finally, it really limits the starting location options for the generator--European nations will typically spawn one on top of the other on bad map gens.

    The problem is particularly more prevalent the larger the map gets. I shall illustrate.

    Example A: Here is a particularly long run.

    This example is from the scenario map Western Hemisphere. But it shows how large landmasses can be so far away from Europe as to make settling them pointless. Also note how the English player is totally screwed. I shall refer to these situations lovingly--borrowing a term from Age of Empires--as "Map Screws."

    Example B: A pretty hefty map screw.

    The game will try to place you within 4-5 tiles of terrain from Europe. However, sometimes it can't find anything suitable and you get a situation like the above. The actual sailing distance to anything useful is 12 tiles. That more than triples my sailing time to Europe for all my vessels.

    Example C: Here is a generated terrain with excessively long travel times to the innards.

    Here's another example. Now the game does start the player within five tiles of land. That's one of three directions the player could assume to sail (there's no hint on which way is correct). So the player could potentially spend 3-5 turns just sailing aimlessly. Founding starter colonies on those internal peninsulas is just suicide.

    Rather than prattle on endlessly, I did a small sum of data collection on Standard and Huge maps:

    Standard
    - Player - Starting distance (Parenthesis accounts for map screw) for game N
    - ME - 5 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4 - 4
    - CPU1 - 5 - 4 - 5 - 4 - 4 - 4
    - CPU2 - 5 - 6 - 4(8) - 4 - 5
    Player Map Screw % - 16% of games 'screwed'

    Huge
    - ME - 4 - 5 - 4(12) - 4(7) - 4
    - CPU1 - 6 - 5 - 4 - 5 - 6 - 4(6)
    - CPU2 - 5 - 5 - 4 - 5 - 4 - 4(11)
    - CPU3 - 8 - 4 - 6 - 5 - 5 - 8
    Player Map Screw % - 50% of games 'screwed'

    So in the cases where I get screwed, it's pretty easy to restart. However, the AI has to suffer the consequences and have some particularly hobbled starts. I suspect the problem is magnified in MP as nobody will want a poor start like that.

    And then?
    So there's the problem of the map screw, which is magnified (and perhaps caused) by the distance to Europe. Guessing from my starts above, the desired distance to Europe is 4-5 squares. This distance makes it highly desirable to upgrade to a Merchantman as soon as possible, so I'll consider it somewhat sacred.

    One solution is to draw the Sail to Europe closer to land. The original Colonization did a pretty good job of this, and it made maps with large gulfs possible to still colonize the interior. See the America map from that game as an example.

    How would this work in Civ4:Col? Filling in from the edges, stop drawing tiles at a distance that's five (5) water tiles from a shore. The distance drawn without making diagonal traversals. This number could be tweaked, of course.

    Example D: Here's an actual map with mountains to represent the new concept.

    In this example, a player who normally has to travel 8 tiles to Europe would then only have to travel five or six. In the case of large gulfs that would normally be inaccessible to Europe, the fill would bring the Europe travel time right to their shores, allowing colonization possibilities. And also allowing for a much large variation in starting locations.

    Will it eliminate map screws? Not unless it's paired with something to check the size of the nearest land mass. Rejecting landmasses under 5 tiles in size is probably an adequate start.

    However it will help to reduce the incidence of them, and reduce the fallout from having to look for something further in on the map. From my examples, in example B, the player could make it to the second island further in, but still have reasonable sailing time to Europe. In that case, they'd only be out the time required to find the second island, rather than the sailing time AND the Europe-colonial sailing time for all the following trips.
    Last edited by DarthVeda; September 27, 2008, 13:14.

  • #2
    Also, you can go to Europe from the West as well, go around the tip of S. America and see. Unfortunately, California is REALLY dry, so the only good ports are to the north. And upon return, you may come in, in the east (not sure).

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    • #3
      You always come back from Europe where you left.

      And the problem with distance only gets worse on irregular maps like The Carribean. It looks like one AI was stranded in the middle of nowhere.
      Last edited by DarthVeda; September 27, 2008, 16:47.

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      • #4
        The Huge map of America that comes with the game is even worse. I want to colonize the east coast of the United States (imitating English colonies), but that's THIRTY tiles away from the nearest "Sail to Europe" location, which means that it takes about TWENTY turns to make a round trip to Europe.

        That said, what can we do in terms of a mod to address this issue in the map generator?
        Last edited by Ijuin; September 27, 2008, 23:50.
        Those who live by the sword...get shot by those who live by the gun.

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        • #5
          I don't have a clear idea, I was looking through some of the map scripts and exposed code yesterday for it, and wasn't entirely sure where it was hidden. I may take another crack at that after I read up some on modding the civ engine.

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          • #6
            not every colony can be built in an ideal location. the brasilian colonies are at the end of a strong east to west current off africa. the north american colonies are there because of fisher's and sailor's prior knowledge of the place. columbus... was kind of a dunce, maybe, but he was using existing accounts of 'that place over there'. that he thought there was a way around 'what was over there' was the passage to india problem for him.

            if you build a custom scenario on the huge western hemisphere maps, play around with the number of civs you allow initially and see where you end up. start with two leaders from your own civ and see where they end up... one way up and far from the new world, and the other in brasil.

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            • #7
              Realism is one thing, but a twenty-turn round-trip to Europe is game breaking, and makes the United States a non-viable location to colonize. Even just keeping up your shipping volume requires double the number of ships.
              Those who live by the sword...get shot by those who live by the gun.

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Ijuin
                Realism is one thing, but a twenty-turn round-trip to Europe is game breaking, and makes the United States a non-viable location to colonize. Even just keeping up your shipping volume requires double the number of ships.
                I would say that this is especially true given that actually getting to or from Europe only takes one or two turns after getting to the zone. The solution is just moving the zone westward up near North America, like it was in the original.
                John Brown did nothing wrong.

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                • #9
                  This has been addressed in the Snoopy/Dale patch. The zone has been extended to cover the east third and west third of the maps (within 4 tiles of the coast).

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                  • #10
                    Thanks. Now what can we do about altering the scenario maps that came with the game, especially the Huge America one? Does the World Builder allow us to place sea lanes?
                    Those who live by the sword...get shot by those who live by the gun.

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                    • #11
                      Yeah you can place the sea zones.

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                      • #12
                        Not to cite realism but....I don't think the original colonizers knew exactly which way to sail either. Having land ALWAYS being with 5 tiles of Sail to Europe is unrealistic in my opinion if it means you get to Europe faster. You might as well make it 3 tiles or 1 tile and always have to click Sail to Europe to make it count.
                        Lets assume an America map with no Caribbean islands. You could have a Sail to Europe square 5 squares away from Yucatan peninsula and therefore it would take the same amount of time to get there as it would to Nova Scotia. There should be some penalty for settling so far inward.

                        Just like sometimes you get screwed on what resources are near your first landfall, sometimes you can get screwed on how far you have to travel to get there.
                        .......shhhhhh......I'm lurking.......proud to have been stuck at settler for six years.......

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                        • #13
                          Brazil was indeed a much faster trip around this era. But problems closer to home pretty much kept them from winning; (namely becoming part of Spain for a few decades [which was overstrengthed both in Europe and the Americas] before becoming indepedent)

                          As to the rest of the area the total travel time for the Spanish colonies in the Carabean or the English.French/Dutch colonies in what is now US & Canada were pretty similar. In large part because as sailing vessels they needed to pretty much all take the Trade Winds west (S of 30 N Lat) , and take the Gulf Stream NE to off the coast of New Enlgand before heading back east.

                          I wonder if a prevaling winds mod could be added?
                          1st C3DG Term 7 Science Advisor 1st C3DG Term 8 Domestic Minister
                          Templar Science Minister
                          AI: I sure wish Jon would hurry up and complete his turn, he's been at it for over 1,200,000 milliseconds now.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by AoA
                            Not to cite realism but....I don't think the original colonizers knew exactly which way to sail either. Having land ALWAYS being with 5 tiles of Sail to Europe is unrealistic in my opinion if it means you get to Europe faster. You might as well make it 3 tiles or 1 tile and always have to click Sail to Europe to make it count.
                            Lets assume an America map with no Caribbean islands. You could have a Sail to Europe square 5 squares away from Yucatan peninsula and therefore it would take the same amount of time to get there as it would to Nova Scotia. There should be some penalty for settling so far inward.

                            Just like sometimes you get screwed on what resources are near your first landfall, sometimes you can get screwed on how far you have to travel to get there.
                            In a game that purports to have MP balance, this sort of "well it's realistic" or "it's only a minor inconvenience" argument doesn't work. In some cases it's even game-breaking (i.e. you're better off quitting).

                            I'll start off with a comparison between two "minor" distance gaps. A 5-tile distance and an 8-tile distance.

                            The difference between a 5-tiles and 8-tiles trip to Europe (not including off-map sailing time) might seem small. However, on the return it becomes 10 tiles and 16 tiles for the round trip.

                            By 100 turns into the game, the 5-tile route has arrived at Europe around 19.23 times. The 8-tile route has arrived at Europe around 13.89 times.

                            On a Caravel with 1-turn to and 1-turn from off-map sailing time, that's about 1068 tons of cargo difference. Which if the average price of goods is 5 gold, comes to a 5340 gold advantage.

                            Because of slippery slope mechanics, every gold earned early in the game is worth even more than the later game.

                            The 5-tile player is far ahead of the 8-tile player at this point. Even more so if they had more than one vessel working that route.
                            Last edited by DarthVeda; October 1, 2008, 09:28.

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                            • #15
                              Thus, as I said above, the longer route means that you need more ships, and also that you may even need Frigates to guard your cargo ships if you are going to be spending multiple turns in the ocean. This incurs much extra expense. In the example I gave earlier, a round trip between the United States and Europe took a minimum of twenty turns, which is too long to be practical and makes the United States area non-viable for colonizing.
                              Those who live by the sword...get shot by those who live by the gun.

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