Why Only Four Civs?

[Zealot]

Originally posted by SandroTheMaster
Also, for the person who said portugal was the first to abolish slave labor... it's not exactly true. Brazil was the last independent nation to abolish it, and only for pressure from the capitalist England. The thing is that this was the black slavery. Indian slavery was abolished thanks to the influence of the Jesuit religious faction who were against the Indian slavery (they wanted to use the Indians a sub-human paid labor).

Dude why do you compare Portugal to the independent nation Brazil? They already had their emperor and parliament by then.


Anyway I was DEEPLY shocked by the Gamespot preview that there won't be the Portuguese nation to play with when the game is shipped. I find that disgusting and VERY insulting! I always forgave the first Colonization not to include the Portuguese because of design issues and its limit of only 48 cities for all european nations.
I don't care if the game only starts counting in 1580 instead of 1500, I don't care the Spanish rule of Portugal for 60 years as an excuse when the Portuguese colonization carried on with the Portuguese flag, I don't want more excuses!!! It's 2008 and there is NO reason to include the Dutch and not Portugal on anything related to Colonization! For crying out loud, the Dutch don't have almost any former colonies left because they were kicked out from South America by the Portuguese!

[Felch]

Originally posted by Niptium
http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/civilizatio.../884502p1.html

Looks pretty damn good. Also it sounds like the continental congress will be handled differently here.

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by Zealot


Dude why do you compare Portugal to the independent nation Brazil? They already had their emperor and parliament by then.


Anyway I was DEEPLY shocked by the Gamespot preview that there won't be the Portuguese nation to play with when the game is shipped. I find that disgusting and VERY insulting! I always forgave the first Colonization not to include the Portuguese because of design issues and its limit of only 48 cities for all european nations.
I don't care if the game only starts counting in 1580 instead of 1500, I don't care the Spanish rule of Portugal for 60 years as an excuse when the Portuguese colonization carried on with the Portuguese flag, I don't want more excuses!!! It's 2008 and there is NO reason to include the Dutch and not Portugal on anything related to Colonization! For crying out loud, the Dutch don't have almost any former colonies left because they were kicked out from South America by the Portuguese!

Well, technically, you can't actually say that Brazil was an Independent Nation during it's Empire Era. How you're Portuguese you surely know that the reason why the Portuguese Royal family left their heirs in Brazil was so that they could maintain its control on the nation after its independence, since the Brazilian Royal family was completely composed of the Portuguese Royals. The greatest reason why Brazil kept the black slavery for so long was because of the pressure from Portugal to keep it, since Portugal was the country that profited the most from Slave Traffic.

Anyway, I completely agree that the Portuguese should be included. For All Hell Broke Loose, the Portuguese empire has more justified reason to be in it than ANY OF THE ORIGINAL ONES. More than the Dutch, certainly. More than the England, surely (England pretty much only went and colonized every piece of land the PORTUGUESE had previously discovered, only away from the Portuguese colonies.) The Spanish? The Spanish practically learned everything they knew from navigation from the Portuguese as it was more concerned about European affairs than Ocean exploration during the Renascence. And France, I know very well, just rode along this "colonization rush".

Hell, from what I know Portugal unofficially discovered America before that bloat Christopher Columbus, and none other than Vasco da Gama himself did it, only that it was a national secret they were holding from the rest of the world, and then the Spanish went there and spoke to the four winds they had discovered a new route (although it was mostly because Columbus thought it was India, that idiot... he just made the Europe whole know about a new land that otherwise could be exploited secretly for a looooong time by Portugal and Spain). After that, apparently Portugal sent some poor chap called Cabral or some such to at least claim the southern America as they had previously encountered.

Not adding the Portuguese is not only an act of utter American arrogance (don't mind me, I'm french) these days (there certainly aren't any limitations nowdays), it is like spitting in the face of History. Nine Hells, the Spanish, English, French and whoever else had to have Portuguese speaking people in their expeditionary forces so they could communicate with the natives of wherever they reached, because Portugal had already set foot everywhere outside Europe when Europe was too busy scratching its ass.

Rant done...

[Niptium]

Originally posted by SandroTheMaster


Well, technically, you can't actually say that Brazil was an Independent Nation during it's Empire Era. How you're Portuguese you surely know that the reason why the Portuguese Royal family left their heirs in Brazil was so that they could maintain its control on the nation after its independence, since the Brazilian Royal family was completely composed of the Portuguese Royals. The greatest reason why Brazil kept the black slavery for so long was because of the pressure from Portugal to keep it, since Portugal was the country that profited the most from Slave Traffic.

Anyway, I completely agree that the Portuguese should be included. For All Hell Broke Loose, the Portuguese empire has more justified reason to be in it than ANY OF THE ORIGINAL ONES. More than the Dutch, certainly. More than the England, surely (England pretty much only went and colonized every piece of land the PORTUGUESE had previously discovered, only away from the Portuguese colonies.) The Spanish? The Spanish practically learned everything they knew from navigation from the Portuguese as it was more concerned about European affairs than Ocean exploration during the Renascence. And France, I know very well, just rode along this "colonization rush".

Hell, from what I know Portugal unofficially discovered America before that bloat Christopher Columbus, and none other than Vasco da Gama himself did it, only that it was a national secret they were holding from the rest of the world, and then the Spanish went there and spoke to the four winds they had discovered a new route (although it was mostly because Columbus thought it was India, that idiot... he just made the Europe whole know about a new land that otherwise could be exploited secretly for a looooong time by Portugal and Spain). After that, apparently Portugal sent some poor chap called Cabral or some such to at least claim the southern America as they had previously encountered.

Not adding the Portuguese is not only an act of utter American arrogance (don't mind me, I'm french) these days (there certainly aren't any limitations nowdays), it is like spitting in the face of History. Nine Hells, the Spanish, English, French and whoever else had to have Portuguese speaking people in their expeditionary forces so they could communicate with the natives of wherever they reached, because Portugal had already set foot everywhere outside Europe when Europe was too busy scratching its ass.

Rant done...

Wow, somebody got a page off the national propaganda spinoff book...

[Felch]

I think you guys need to stop taking this so personally. Maybe they decided that four Euro civs, plus the natives, plus the Royal Army, makes a good mix of different interest groups.

I'm sure Firaxis knows the history of Brazil. They probably are focusing on making a good game, one that is largely faithful to the original, and not worrying so much about getting every last detail accurate.

It's only a game guys. Try to keep that in perspective.

That being said, I'd certainly like the option of having more Euro civs, or possibly extra ones so that some games you play with Sweden instead of the Dutch, or Portugal instead of France.

[Verrucosus]

I hope that the focus on just four colonial powers will make each of them more distinctive. The most important aspects, gameplay advantages and penalties and AI character, have already been mentioned. I am also thinking of more superficial aspects like artwork and music selection (please, no Marsaillaise for pre-revolutionary France) that help with immersion. All of this takes a lot of time and effort. I'd prefer them to concentrate that effort on making each power as unique and colourful as possible. This is not to say that having just one more power (Portugal) would defeat that purpose, but after two civilization expansions (more civs!, more units!, more wonders!), I do like the approach of a less "crowded" game.

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by Niptium


Wow, somebody got a page off the national propaganda spinoff book...

I'm not Portuguese. This all I got from my limited (although varied) knowledge of history. During the Navigation Era, new Oceanic Routes were always national secret. Stumbling in, lets say, continent mass as big as America somewhere where everyone else thought there was nothing and wouldn't bother for a long time CERTAINLY wouldn't be something your country would tell everyone. From research of navigation logs there are some gaps in Vasco Da Gama missions, and taking the fact that's so frigging easy to get in Brazil by boat, since there's a great possibility that the Phoenicians got in America WAY before anyone else, through Brazil, and then several others after them, INCLUDING THE CHINESE (and that's proved through DNA tests into surviving indians) thanks to an ocean current west of Africa which navigator had to get loose of in order to trespass the northern Atlantic Ocean to the southern. Vasco da Game probably got caught in a storm or screwed up, but it's highly likely he got there first. Because the Cabral guy couldn't have found Brazil in a million years, and had way too much caravels to have them all get caught by this ocean current. He practically had a colonization crew with him, it's all too suspicious to Portugal not know the location of Brazil and make such kind of trading fleet.

I do have something against Columbus. From all my knowledge of history, I know he sure as hell wasn't a good navigator. He had this theory of the earth being round, got out of Spain before the church could do anything about it, stumbled at north america believing with every fiber of his being that it was India, got back with much hardship, and announced openly a new route. It would be the equivalent of the USA telling everyone how to build a space rocket and the location of every nuke they build at the same time during the cold war. The Spanish king should have strangled him before he finished his self-praising. Also, he's praised as an expert navigator (after all, he discovered america, didn't he?) when every future expedition he tried to finish ended in disaster, but I already said that.

Also, if you don't believe me that the expeditions of the era needed a portuguese speaking crew, just see the portuguese influence on many of the Asian languages. Take Japanese for instance. They have the "Arigato", that I shouldn't tell anyone that means "Thank you". Well, "Arigato" is the current form of the closest mimic the japanese could do of "Obrigado". Alright, you can say it's a bit of a stretch. What about "Pan"? It means "Bread", in portuguese, it is "Pão" (Read something like "Pan-oh"). The japanese didn't even know how to make bread before it. But some time later, the Portuguese got some problems and couldn't keep their relation with all those colonies. Even so a lot of areas in the African continent and the Asian continent speak portuguese today still because the portuguese could maintain their colonies in those areas.

So stop this "Portuguese Propaganda" excuse and give me a single legitimate reason to scrap the country that, despite of the mountain of mistakes made in later centuries that sent it to oblivion, was the symbol of navigation and colonization since the end of the medieval era? It's like scraping the Greeks and Romans out of military history because they weren't Christian (Something that was tried during the Inquisition)

"I'm sure Firaxis knows the history of Brazil."

And I doubt it. I mean, if they knew, there'd be more than just "The Redentor" about the country in all Civ games to date. So far, the nation of Brazil is mostly a footnote in... well, every game ever made to have do with history... or with the americas... or with colonization... (Call to power don't actually count, since the nations are mostly cosmetic there).

[CyberChrist]

I can think of absolutely ZERO valid reasons that Portugal shouldn't be included as one of the 'major' playable nations in this 2008 incarnation of Colonization.

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing some of the 'minor' nations that also made a bid for America included as well (Denmark, Germany(HRE), Sweden, Russia - and even Courland - would all fit). They might be severely restricted in options compared to the 'major' nations, but might prove an interesting challenge to either play or compete with - and should of course each have their own indvidual national ace up their sleeve.

[Dale]

I think the over-riding argument is that the existing four provide the four different play styles.

England - huge populations
France - diplomacy
Dutch - trade
Spanish - conquest

Really, where would Portugal fit in? From a GAMEPLAY stand point I can see where they're coming from. Because if anything, Portugal would be almost identical to Spain in everything bar name and flag.

[CyberChrist]

I beg to differ.

Although Portugal did enage in enslaving the natives it was never conquest in any way comparable to how the Spanish went about it.

Nevertheless Slavery seems to be a core feature of Portugals American history (which btw is probably a far more credibly reason for them not being included).

Any or all of the following 3 fast suggestions (I am sure more could be found) would be quite fitting for the Portuguese:
- conquest of native tribes produce Native Slaves (works as european Criminals)
- acces to their African colony Angola for trading African Slaves (works as european Indentured Servants) for manufactured goods
- shorter travel time to/from America to Old World and faster Caravels


It wouldn't be too hard to find similar fitting abilities for the minor nations I mentioned either.

[Dale]

Sorry I think you mistook my meaning.

What PLAY STYLE would Portugal encompass? Essentially in game, they would play like the Spanish. I think that's why they were left out.

Also, the main cultures are represented: Iberian, French, English and Germanic(/Dutch).

Portugal sort of gets left out on the wayside. It wasn't the primary Catholic, nor Iberian, nor Coloniser, nor Navy/Military, nor economic power, nor was it around for most of the middle of the game period (being a Spanish puppet).

[CyberChrist]

I think you are being a bit narrow minded here - and even so surely they would play more like the Dutch following that logic.

I must admit I am surprised you can't see how a Slave based economy would play quite differently from the 4 other types of economies.

Let me try and present a few suggestions as economic PLAY STYLES:
- Slavers, can enslave natives, import african slaves and trade both with other nations (Slaves doesn't count toward or against Rebel sentiments and only eat 1 food each)
- Explorers, all units function like Scouts(except for movement) and Caravels has extra movement and sight. Gain extra gold for being first of Europeans to reveal parts of America (from map sales)
- Cultivators, coastal colonies yield more crops from each citizen (Portuguese was fast to diversify their plantations and traditionally only rarely colonized inland)

[SandroTheMaster]

I already said that Portugal actually had good autonomy and the "puppet of spain" thing was mostly bureaucratic. Heavy abuse of slaves do make a hell of a difference in gameplay as it radically changes the colonization effort both economically and in infrastructure (believe me, the "South" in the EUA civil war knew nothing about slave abuse).

Anyway... just to add to the "reasons the portuguese knew of Brazil", the portuguese made a treaty with the spanish before the discovery of Brazil saying that Portugal would have claiming on any lands in the Atlantic discovered east of an imaginary line in the Atlantic, a line that pretty much left the north america to the Spanish. That would leave pretty much nothing for Portugal if Brazil didn't exist. It is just suspicious for Portugal to make such an disadvantageous treaty don't you think?

[Dale]

I can see why Firaxis would want to avoid the whole slavery topic.

But that aside, I still see Portugal playing similar to existing nations, for example you chose trade. The Dutch were stronger traders than the Portugese.

And that's my point. The Portugese didn't excel at anything, they were good at all. Whereas the other four majors represented exceled at something.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Dale
Sorry I think you mistook my meaning.

What PLAY STYLE would Portugal encompass? Essentially in game, they would play like the Spanish. I think that's why they were left out.

Also, the main cultures are represented: Iberian, French, English and Germanic(/Dutch).

Portugal sort of gets left out on the wayside. It wasn't the primary Catholic, nor Iberian, nor Coloniser, nor Navy/Military, nor economic power, nor was it around for most of the middle of the game period (being a Spanish puppet).

Dale it's obvious that you have a bias against significant cultural differences that may exist between the Spanish and Portuguese. There were and are quite remarkable differences.
To start, the Portuguese weren't conquistadores like the Spanish, they were colonizers. Also, the Portuguese weren't looters, they were traders, although the farming industry was one of the first industries developed in Brazil for the precious sugar and Pau-Brasil (a very valued wood, hence the name).

As for not being the primary catholic country, I have to say it was one of the TWO primary countries, more than Italy at the time.

Portugal was not a major military power but they did kick the Dutch out of Brazil. The only land war that resulted in a loss for Portugal is the territory south of Brazil called Uruguay. The Spanish won that one.
And it damn right was an economic power. With all the spices coming from India and sugar from Brazil, the Portuguese Feitorias were thriving in Flandres, selling the goods that no one else in Europe had in abundance.

In fact it was because of the wealth the Portuguese had that the Dutch then woke up and went for a share of the New World.

The major "component" that the Portuguese were lacking was population. Small country you know...

Oh, and the Spanish anexation of Portugal was only 60 years, and had no influence on the expansion of Brasil. So that wouldn't be a problem for Colonization, the game.

Originally posted by SandroTheMaster
Anyway... just to add to the "reasons the portuguese knew of Brazil", the portuguese made a treaty with the spanish before the discovery of Brazil saying that Portugal would have claiming on any lands in the Atlantic discovered east of an imaginary line in the Atlantic, a line that pretty much left the north america to the Spanish. That would leave pretty much nothing for Portugal if Brazil didn't exist. It is just suspicious for Portugal to make such an disadvantageous treaty don't you think?

Yup, why would king João II demand for more 100 leagues to the west of the line decreed by the (Spanish) Pope in the Tordesilhas Treaty in 1493, if Brazil was only discovered in 1500, allowing them to claim the land? The speculation that Portugal already knew of the existance of Brazil before 1493 (and maybe even before 1492) is a very credible one.