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  • Virtue Analysis

    Ok, first of all, check out the Beyond Earth Virtues Planner!

    connect_errno) { $output = "Connect failed: " . $mysqli->connect_error; } else { $query = "SELECT * FROM civbe_virtues ORDER BY id ASC"; if ($virtues = $mysqli->query($query)) { $query = "SELECT * FROM civbe_synergies ORDER BY id ASC"; if ($synergies = $mysqli->query($query)) { $output = apDisplayVirtuePicker($virtues,$synergies); $synergies->free(); } /* free result set */ $virtues->free(); } } $mysqli->close(); //file_put_contents($file, $output); } else $output = file_get_contents($file); return $output; function apDisplayVirtuePicker($virtues, $synergies) { $width = 1006; $height = 653; $treeWidth = 230; $tierHeight = 182; $firstX = 119; $firstY = 114; $firstTopSynergyX = 115; $firstTopSynergyY = 69; $firstSideSynergyX = 44; $firstSideSynergyY = 94; $synergyX = 75; $synergyY = 9; $normalX = 60; $normalY = 62; $virtueWidth = 45; $virtueHeight = 43; $synergyWidth = 24; $synergyHeight = 24; $firstTierCounterY = 105; $firstTierCounterX = 70; $tierCounterHeight = 9; $tierCounterWidth = 16; $tierHeight = 182; $tierWidth = 16; $tierGap = 3; $firstCatCounterX = 89; $firstCatCounterY = 95; $catCounterWidth = 15; $catCounterHeight = 11; $catWidth = 225; $catHeight = 11; $catGap = 5; $output = ' '; //$virtuesEnabled = array(); $virtuesLeadTo = array(); $virtuesPrereq = array(); $virtuesLookup = array(); $virtueOutput = ''; while ($virtue = $virtues->fetch_assoc()) { //$virtuesEnabled['virtue' . $virtue['id']] = $virtue['enabled']; $virtuesLeadTo['virtue' . $virtue['id']] = $virtue['enables']; $virtuesPrereq['virtue' . $virtue['id']] = $virtue['prereqs']; $virtuesLookup[$virtue['virtue']] = 'virtue' . $virtue['id']; $category = strtolower($virtue['cat']); if($category === 'might') $tree = 0; else if($category === 'prosperity') $tree = 1; else if($category === 'knowledge') $tree = 2; else if($category === 'industry') $tree = 3; if($virtue['tier'] === '3') $tierClass = ' tier3'; else if($virtue['tier'] === '2') $tierClass = ' tier2'; else if($virtue['tier'] === '1') $tierClass = ' tier1'; else $tierClass = ''; $treeOffset = $firstX + ($tree * $treeWidth); $tierOffset = $firstY + (($virtue['tier'] - 1) * $tierHeight); $xPos = $treeOffset + (($virtue['col'] - 1) * $normalX); $yPos = $tierOffset + (($virtue['row'] - ((($virtue['tier'] - 1) * 3)) - 1) * $normalY); //echo $virtue['virtue'] . ' yPos(' . $yPos . '): toff(' . $tierOffset . ') + (row(' . $virtue['row'] . ') - (((tier(' . $tierOffset . ' - 1) * 3)) - 1) * normalY(' . $normalY . ')
    '; if($virtue['num'] === '1') $isEnabled = ' class="glowBorderEnabled"'; else $isEnabled = ''; $virtueOutput .= '
    ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '

    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } $synergyOutput = ''; while ($synergy = $synergies->fetch_assoc()) { $type = strtolower($synergy['type']); if($type === 'tier') $num = $synergy['tier']; else $num = ''; $yPos = $firstTopSynergyY; if($type === 'tier') { $xPos = $firstSideSynergyX; $yPos = $firstSideSynergyY + (($synergy['tier'] - 1) * ($tierHeight + 2)) + (($synergy['num'] - ($synergy['virtues'] / 2)) * $synergyY); } else if ($type === 'might') { $xPos = $firstTopSynergyX + (($synergy['tier'] - 1) * $synergyX); } else if ($type === 'prosperity') { $xPos = $firstTopSynergyX + (($synergy['tier'] - 1) * $synergyX) + $treeWidth; } else if ($type === 'knowledge') { $xPos = $firstTopSynergyX + (($synergy['tier'] - 1) * $synergyX) + (2 * $treeWidth); } else if ($type === 'industry') { $xPos = $firstTopSynergyX + (($synergy['tier'] - 1) * $synergyX) + (3 * $treeWidth); } if($synergy['tier'] == 3) $tierClass = ' tier3'; else $tierClass = ''; $synergyOutput .= '
    Synergy: ' . $synergy['name'] . '

    ' . $synergy['kicker'] . '
    '; } $output .= '
    Culture Icon
    Total:
    0
    Next:
    20
    '; $output .= $virtueOutput . $synergyOutput . '
    '; return $output; } function apConvertLeadsTo($array,$lookup) { $newArray = array(); foreach($array as $key => $val) { if($val != '') { $virtues = explode(',',$val); $newArray[$key] = ''; $comma = ''; foreach($virtues as $virtue) { $newArray[$key] .= $comma . $lookup[$virtue]; $comma = ','; } } else { $newArray[$key] = ''; } } return apArrayToJsArray($newArray); } function apArrayToJsArray($array) { $output = '{'; $comma = ''; foreach($array as $key => $val) { $output .= $comma . "'" . $key . "': '" . $val . "'"; $comma = ', '; } $output .= '};'; return $output; } function apBaseUrl() { return 'http://cache.apolyton.net/'; //return 'http://127.0.0.1/apolyton.net/'; } ?>

    Now for an analysis of each of the Virtues, starting with the Might tree. In general the Virtues look really good to me. The balance seems more situational than inherent. There trees have some mixed in bonuses from other aspects of gameplay than their base concept. I can see a lot of interesting and potentially powerful paths to take here.

    My preferred playstyle has always been highly organic. Analyze, adapt, and keep the pressure on in every aspect of gameplay. Sometimes it's nice to be peaceful and play tall ... but it gets boring fast. Go out and bonk some heads! Expand! (It's not called 3X now is it?) This is my planet!

    Note, we have a new BBCode that will display virtue information straight out of the database: [virtue=civbe]Adaptive Tactics[/virtue] will produce a small table with the Virtue icon, name, and effect ... linked to the Apolyton Wiki entry for Virtues.
    "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

  • #2
    Might Virtues

    Might is far more interesting than Civ V's military trees IMO. You get a good mix of military and economic bonuses here ... and the economic bonuses are ones that look rather powerful without having to sacrifice your safety. Also, since unit upgrades are tied to Affinity as much as Tech, it gives military a chance to compete with research.

    Verdict: Sometimes you can have your cake and eat it too. Ok, so you might not be able to eat quite as much cake here as with some other trees, but you also can smack those other trees around with your cake, then eat their cake!




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    Getting upgrades quicker is a useful ability. Your units become stronger, faster ... or you can heal up more to keep fighting. Which will help you gain more XP faster as well. From gameplay videos, it looks like early rushing is possible with the first ranged units at Physics. Especially if you can get your first Affinity upgrade before your neighbors do.

    This will help you leverage your early units to keep them in battle longer, and should have them upgraded off of bugs by the time you start the rush. Might has some economic potential, so Adaptive Tactics could have some limited place in more limited warfare situations.

    Verdict: If you plan on fighting a lot, get Adaptive Tactics as soon as you start pumping out units. Or sooner. This is a great force multiplier!




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    Survivalism is the way to quickly get through the first Might tier. It's a useful bonus if you're fighting lots of Aliens, and if you're hugging the left side of Might, fighting Aliens is what you should be doing.

    Verdict: Fighting bugs? Squish Squish! Peacenik tree-hugger? Avoid at all costs.




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    Military Industrial Complex is for warmongers who plan on building lots of units to go beat down on Outposts and Factions and leave the Aliens be as much as possible. Leads to the more economic Might techs. "Might Right" could be one to try, just because of how it plays into the new game mechanics. Affinity, Orbital, and Espionage all have bonuses there. Looks like a safe approach that gives you some good (but not great) economic bonuses without having to sacrifice early military.

    Verdict: Boring but useful.




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    Need more Health? Build more units. Should be useful to wide builds that do a lot of fighting. So far there doesn't seem to be a lot else that you can get Health from. If you're going Liberation Army Outpost hunting, you'll probably want the Health. Because you should be able to expand fast!

    Verdict: Build a Healthy amount of units. use them to get a big empire. Keep it Healthy with the units that conquered it. The synergy here is awesome.




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    This one looks very good to me. Build more units, the Settlers are free. Outposts look very easy to conquer. As in, free for the taking. AIs are dumb. No need to declare war to capture Outposts.

    The only problem here is the AIs are probably building the cities in dumb locations.

    Verdict: This is Supremacy before you even get started with Affinity. Liberate those Outpost from their oppressive "not-you" leadership!




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    Ok. This is the first Virtue I really wanted to try to exploit. Bug farming. I'm thinking Purity 1 Scouts walling off an Alien preserve and playing herd the Siege Worms past the Rangers firing squad. I'm not saying this is definitely what I'm going to do in my very first game ... but that's only because they might change it by then.

    Verdict: Doogie Howser in Starship Troopers ... learning lessons from good old bug squashing fun!




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    Ok, when bug farming you're getting Science. Adaptive Sciences makes your Science worth more towards making your bug farming better (Affinity upgrades). If you have Adaptive Sciences opened up. Take it.

    Verdict: It's open. You take it. If you're sitting at home planting gardens or knitting sweaters ... you don't have it open anyway and aren't going to. It's a moot point.




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    I find this Virtue one of the most intriguing. The livestream tomorrow is going to deal with this, and not much info about Espionage so far ... so I'll wait till after the livestream to fill it out.

    Verdict: Currently Embedding Covert Agent ...

    EDIT: After seeing more about Espionage, this is going to be a very important virtue. Unless you're ARC or SF you probably won't need to get it too early, but it's something I have trouble seeing how you wouldn't need to take it every single game.

    Covert Ops look to be as important an aspect of gameplay as any other (and not just because it can impact every other aspect of gameplay). Stealing techs, flipping cities (even Capitals) ... these things need to be done before the late-game counters are available and built, and that means building Intrigue as fast as you can.

    Liberation Army being the prerequisite makes it that much more attractive.

    Verdict: I remember Civ II Diplomats ... do you?




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    Another economic bonus in the Might tree. You're going to want to claim as many strategic resources as you can, so this should be a pretty decent boost. Only way to Brutal Efficiency, which looks very strong for the late game.

    Verdict: Not bad ... In the way to more interesting things.




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    1 Free Affinity level can mean upgrading your units or not. But your units don't upgrade every Affinity level. If you have a bunch of Gunners that have been Pew Pewing away at Aliens and your neighbors ... and you're sitting at Affinity level 6. Then it's huge. At other times, you c ould wait a while and take something else instead.

    Verdict: One affinity point away from that big game-breaking upgrade? This is where you want to be! Not one affinity point away from that big game-breaking upgrade? You should have timed things better ...




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    This one is aptly named. All the big late game units require Strategic resources. Many of the buildings do too. You've been expanding and grabbing all you can. Now having 50% more is ... big.

    Verdict: Beat down commencing in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ...




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    A slightly more interesting and more powerful version of Military Industrial Complex. All those big units you can build because of Brutal Efficiency are going to cost a lot less to build with this one.

    Verdict: Still kinda boring. But powerful.




    ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
    ' . $virtue['description'] . '
    '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

    Being able to drop units anywhere there's a station you're trading with seems like a pretty big deal. Having military satellites over "neutral" territory is also a big deal. But it's highly dependant on the position of those stations, and often they end up in places that aren't really important.

    I think this is one that you hold off on until last in the Might tree, and might only take it for the free Affinity level. But in some cases it could be very powerful for quick strikes to nearby capitals.

    Verdict: Beam me down, Scotty!




    Might Be The Path

    - Adaptive Tactics to get things started.
    - Survivalism is in the way, but beneficial.
    - Scavenging! The other Factions are going to hate me for mistreating the wildlife. Not as much as when I'm marching into their capitals though ...
    - Adaptive Sciences is nice. Shooting for the next one though. (Not sure, this one may be very helpful too. Depends on timing.)
    - Martial Mediations. Will have to look at the rest of the game to ensure this is timed right to hit Affinity 7.

    ... sounds like a lot of fun, early action
    Last edited by Aeson; September 23, 2014, 11:07.
    "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

    Comment


    • #3
      Prosperity Virtues

      EDIT: The more of the game we see, the less Health looks to matter. This means the Prosperity REX bonuses are much more powerful, and the Prosperity Health bonuses are kinda useless.

      Basically, go straight to Colony Initiative every game. If you go into Tier 2 and 3, Pioneer Spirit, Economy and Nature's Bounty are still good. The rest is underwhelming unless you just want a Healthy empire for the role-playing aspect of it.

      I'll leave the rest of the analysis as-is for when Health is given some teeth.


      Prosperity focuses on expanding your empire and increasing population. Health is going to weigh in a lot on how powerful Prosperity ends up being early and late. Prosperity will be more powerful early if the Health restrictions on growth aren't too important.

      Later in the tree Prosperity gets a lot of Health bonuses, their value will be positively tied to the importance of Health. Likely, it will be important to balance your approach to Prosperity, going deep enough fast enough to get enough Health bonuses to allow you to leverage your early REX bonuses to better effect.

      All of this analysis is subject to change as the effects of Health become more clear.






      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      Food is good. Carry-over isn't quite as good as a Food bonus though. This won't increase the max population you can hit, and won't give you much extra leeway as to placing cities. It just affects the rate at which you grow. Still pretty nice boost to population growth.

      Verdict: I'll probably take this a lot, even if not doing much else in Prosperity. Let it grow ... Let it grow ...




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      A free Worker is very useful as long as your pop is keeping up. An early Prosperity build might be the time to try something other than the Machinery load-out.

      The later you get this virtue, the less important it becomes. The drop off in value for this Virtue is steep. Like a cliff is steep. Taking Machinery and going to Colony Initiative seems like it would always be a better choice than not taking Machinery and going Workforce Initiative instead.

      Verdict: On the wrong side of Prosperity, too late for the Worker to compete




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      Homesteading looks to be a rather useful Virtue. Turn advantage when founding cities is very important. How important is dependant on the implementation of Health though.

      Verdict: If you're going to REX you will want this Virtue ASAP.




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      If you didn't get Workforce Initiative fast enough to make it worth grabbing, this is a way to get much the same value ... only in a Virtue which doesn't have such a narrow timeframe for being viable.

      If you did take the early Worker, this makes it better a choice.

      Still not sure how the rounding works, but I'd guess it ends up > 15% by rounding up to 1 turn saved minimum on Worker jobs. Because rounding down would make it completely worthless on faster game speeds.

      Verdict: Faster Workers are awesome!




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      Colony Initiative isn't just a free city, it's a free city boosted by Homesteading. Between the two it could put you ahead by ... a lot.

      Verdict: OP if you get it early.




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      Pathfinders' value is going to be heavily dependant on map size. From the playthroughs on smaller maps, it would have meant very little. Not even as much as building another Explorer.

      On larger maps though, it might be very helpful.

      Verdict: Big maps, take it early or not at all. Small maps, just don't bother.




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      Border expansions are nice. Much nicer when from +Culture rather than -Culture cost though.

      Intelligent city placement can mostly compensate for not getting this Virtue, but it's a better gateway in most cases than Pathfinders, so you'll get it anyway if going deep Prosperity.

      Verdict: Gateway to Health




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      More commerce from trade-routes. Nice if you're going heavy international trade-routes. A superior gateway to Tier 3 if you wanted to skip Mind Over Matter ... but the question is, would you want to skip Mind Over Matter?

      Verdict: Situational Gateway.




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      The other path to Mind Over Matter, with a decent bonus. However, in many games by 6 Virtues in you might be wrapping up expansion. Another "big map" Virtue that you need to get early to get full benefit from it.

      Don't be tempted into picking Settler Clans before Colony Initiative. The +2 pop doesn't come close to countering the 3 Virtue wait for the Colonist. The Tier 1 Synergy (Free Virtue) can't help either, because you'd have to delay both 2 extra Virtues to get it.

      Verdict: Situational Gateway.




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      +7 Health is a pretty hefty bonus, but not something you're likely to need right off the bat. Is outshone by Public Security (Might 4) if you have a big military though. Community Medicine is a closer competitor.

      Verdict: I'd probably take Public Security first.




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      An extra production per basic resource is nice. That probably translates to 2 or 3 production per city on average. Strategic resources aren't affected.

      Verdict: Rich get Richer, Gateway to Health




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      I think there are Chitin, Resilin, Coral, Gold, Tubers, Algae, Copper, Silica, Basalt, Fungus, Fruit, and Fiber. That would be up to 12 Health. Better than Mind Over Matter for a large empire, later than Mind Over Matter, makes sense.

      Verdict: I love this.




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      Not much info about Specialists so far. Looks like it could be nice, but without Great People Specialists seem to be a less important aspect of gameplay.

      Verdict: I'm unsure of the value of this Virtue. Though I'm sure I'd want Eudaimonia.




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      Terrascapes confuse me. I'm in Prosperity for the Health. That's the only reason to be this deep in Prosperity.

      2F, 2P, 2C is a nice improvement. With -8E and -1H though, I'm not even sure I'd want one. Seems to be Purity specific improvement as well?

      Verdict: This Virtue could be very powerful. I'm just unsure of Terrascapes in general.




      ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
      ' . $virtue['description'] . '
      '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

      Even if they loosened the Happiness screws a lot, 25% less of the "you're too awesome" penalty means you can be even more awesome. Let's say you have 10 cities with 10 pop average, that's -100 Health just from the pop. So +25 Health just from this. Which means you can build a lot more pop ... which further increases the benefit of this.

      Compare it to the (still good) Virtues of Mind Over Matter (7 Health) and Joy from Variety (12 Health) ...

      Verdict: I may have drooled a little on the keyboard when typing this.
      Last edited by Aeson; October 15, 2014, 00:02.
      "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

      Comment


      • #4
        Knowledge Virtues

        Ok, I covered the trees that look more fun to me first, that might have been a mistake. Knowledge looks to me to be a somewhat weak tree. I say that because in Civ, I think the first 100 or so turns decides a game. Knowledge spends most of that time wading through contradictory Virtues pulling in different directions.

        There are some nice later Virtues at the end of the tree.




        ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
        ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
        ' . $virtue['description'] . '
        '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

        +10% Science looks somewhat uninspiring. During the early game, it's going to work out to 1 to 3 Science a turn when you're Healthy, but means you can't get much of anything out of it if you're expanding (up and/or out) as fast as you should be. Gets better later as more Health resources become available and easy expansion opportunities die down. Perhaps the Health qualifier could be dropped.

        Still you have to get it to get any of the nice Knowledge Virtues.

        Verdict: This virtue is recommended by 4 out of 5 turtles.




        ' . $gameText . ' Virtue Icon: ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
        ' . $gameText . ' ' . $virtue['virtue'] . '
        ' . $virtue['description'] . '
        '; } else { $output = ''; } mysqli_close($con); return $output; ?>

        In any of the hundred turn playthroughs I can't recall seeing more than 1 or 2 (rarely) Expeditions finished. 1 Science per turn in the era games are generally decided just doesn't do much for me. 0.5 Science per turn is just that much less thrilling.

        On larger maps and with an Explorer heavy start (I do like to play that way) it could be fun. Pathfinders may still be a better Virtue even in that case though. Not to mention the really good Virtues ... Maybe take it when trying for the double Knowledge I Tier I Synergy early on, but I'm having trouble envisioning a scenario where that would make sense.

        Verdict: Voted most likely to be skipped in High School.




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        Means more Virtues in the situation you should be striving for (more pop).

        Verdict: This is where Foresight is seeing ahead to.




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        The flip side of Foresight. Rather than working while avoiding building pop, this research bonus gets better as you grow. Leads to something kinda backwards though.

        I could see a wide peaceful build (is that even possible?) pushing straight to here and stopping. That's the closest I can come to an early game Knowledge play.

        Verdict: Use Foresight to look ahead ... then look even further ahead ... this is the gateway to take if you're going further.




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        Another turtle Virtue. But only for very small turtles. Net positive Health should be 0 or less until you've won the game. I expect that to be engraved on my tombstone someday ...

        Verdict: The other way isn't great, but not this bad.




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        Knowledge seems to have the most underpowered Virtues. This one will pay itself back eventually. Whether or not there will be enough left over to actually be a net positive is questionable. It's value as a gateway Virtue is what keeps it a viable option.

        Verdict: If you're going deep Knowledge quickly, you get this. Not because of what it is though.




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        A good Virtue hidden in a dark, dank corner of the Laboratory behind Creative Class.

        Verdict: It won't be the last Knowledge you get most of the time, thanks to Field Research.




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        I believe it's 5% increase in cost per city. This put's it at 2.5% benefit ... good for big empires, but if you're beelined here it's probably not that great a Virtue yet.

        Verdict: You should probably skip this for a while.




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        Given the per pop modifiers in Knowledge, +Health is great. This isn't much Health early on though, but still likely the better gateway.




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        I'm not quite sure what the Culture penalty for number of Cities is. If it's the same +5% cost per city as with Science, then this is another one you probably would want to wait for. Doubly so because of the prerequisite options.

        Verdict: Doooooooooon't stop ... beeeeliiiiining!




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        Tier 3 and this one is at least interesting. If you've managed to push through node techs to open up some good leaf techs, Metaresearch should be where Knowledge starts earning it's keep. A 20% reduction in cost is good, and you've also got the 10% boost, the Science from population, the reduced number of Cities Science penalty ... so it's starting to add up.

        Verdict: Congratulations! Though you deserve a bigger prize than this for persevering so long!




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        This looks strong. Maybe one of the strongest Virtues. Could be worth some expensive techs over the course of the game, and even the basic Energy theft is a decent ~15 (~20 if ARC) Energy per turn.

        Verdict: Ok, you've finally made it!




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        I can't recall if we've seen Academies.

        Some danger this might be one of those Virtues that tricks you into shooting yourself in the foot to take advantage of it. Not just to build Academies, but to a lesser extent to take the Virtues leading up to it. Though there's a good reason to do so just around the corner.

        Verdict: Will wait and see on Academies ... in any case a great gateway.




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        This is a good Virtue that gets better as the game goes on. You shouldn't beeline here too fast though, at least not to take it before Information Warfare (or Monomyth if you're a builder) ... but if you are in the neighborhood definitely pick it up. From the limited late game info we have this would be around +25 Science a turn.... but only work out to around a 12% increase. (Questionable how representative those late game examples are.)

        Verdict: I'd have thought that game designers modelling the effect of what could be called game designers in the game would have given themselves more credit.




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        This is a builder's wet dream hidden behind a self-conflicted beeline. Build lots of Wonders and maybe it pays off ... if you beelined full right path, I think that was a mistake.

        Verdict: If you've made it here ... I may question your decision making, but never your determination!
        Last edited by Aeson; September 23, 2014, 13:14.
        "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

        Comment


        • #5
          Industry Virtues

          Industry seems a bit boring to me. But it is a very strong tree regardless of what type of game you will be playing. In fact, that's what makes it boring ... you don't really have to make many decisions about how to approach the game to get Industry's full value. (Investment and Industry Synergy 3 the exceptions.) Directly or indirectly it's going to give good value however you're playing.

          Lots of economic bonuses, and the Trade Route bonuses may be the most powerful Virtues in the game. Plan on spending at least 6 in Industry every game (and probably in the first 6-10 Virtues) until Trade Routes are nerfed or Health is given some teeth.




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          Because the yields from Internal Trade Routes are so high, even a 10% bonus to Production can be 3 or 4 Production per turn per city or more.

          Verdict: 10% towards Buildings doesn't sound like as much as it is.




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          Resources are rather common it looks like. There's even the Weather Controller that will make new ones. +1 Energy per basic resource is going to be a nice boost to your economy that scales up over time.

          Verdict: A better Virtue late than early, but than the alternative gateways.




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          This one seems a bit weak. It essentially gives you an extra unit/building in about 20-30 turns. It's either too early to be useful towards Maintenance, or too late to provide a reasonable level of value. Workforce Initiative in the same slot in Prosperity gives you a Worker instantly, and is still something you have to beeline right towards or avoid like the plague.

          Verdict: Wait until the Industry Synergy 3 if ever taking this at all.




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          Most Wonders aren't that wonderful, early Wonders aren't that costly, and Wonders won't make up a large portion of your building projects in any case. So 15% seems rather weak. The fact it doesn't lead to Standardized Architecture makes it even more-so. Since (presumably) the other +Production Industry virtues will also work towards Wonders (as a type of building), it's understandable that this one is kept from being too big.

          Verdict: Commoditization is a better gateway because of the pathing.




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          This is where Industry gets really good. Combined with the 10% bonus from Labor Logistics this puts all buildings at 35% off if you keep your capital ahead of most of the rest of the Buildings. (Which you of course naturally will, and should.) These bonuses are more useful the larger your empire is.

          Trade Routes ensure you'll never run into a starting location where you can't make your capital a production powerhouse.

          Verdict: This is why you take Commoditization over Scalable Infrastructure.




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          This is the most interesting Virtue in Industry, because it's the only one that will really make you change the way you're playing. You can leverage this up to 100 E/turn, but there's a big trade-off in doing so, as saving up 10k E.

          Verdict: An extra 100 E per turn and a big bank account could let you field a much larger army than otherwise. Looks like a sledgehammer play.




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          This one looks weak. Satellites are cheap. When t hey're expensive it's becasuse of Strategic Resources, which this doesn't help with.

          Verdict: Another you'd only take if going for Industry Synergy 3.




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          This one is a bit weird. Trade Routes push you towards negative Health, because the more cities the more Trade Routes. Combined with the lack of penalty past -20 Health, this is going to be a useless trait for the players really pushing enough Trade Routes to make this a great Virtue.

          Verdict: Generally a better gateway than Investment




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          If you have 3 tier 3 Stations to trade with, that's 9 X 6 = 54 Energy per turn, and you can get it very early. This will help you backfill to grab Investment. Though if you aren't REXing hard you could even skip Standardized Architecture and go through Investment to get here ASAP. (The main reason not to is the next Virtue though.)

          Verdict: Beeline here and protect your Stations with the extra Military it buys/supports.




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          Internal Trade Routes are extremely powerful. +25% yield from what was already the most cost effective thing you can do in the game is a no-brainer, right? This is why Profiteering is the better gateway to Alternative Markets.

          Because of how this scales, you don't have to get it right off, but you probably don't want to get more than 3 "extra" Virtues before getting this one unless on a very specific Military gambit.

          Verdict: One of the Virtues had to be the best. This is it.




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          I don't like Manufactory improvements. +2 P for -1E and -2H just seems a terrible deal. This makes them tolerable (+4P for -1E and -2H), but I think there's better ways to improve land in general.

          By this point Energy is the limit on what you can do. Many builds are going to be very fast anyway. Maybe if they fix Internal Trade Routes then Manufactory improvements make more sense.

          Verdict: Another for the the Industry 3 Synergy.




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          This is another that's at least interesting. If you've got a lot of Energy ... do you use it to support a larger military for longer, or a get a few extra units off right away. This helps make the second choice more viable in more situations. Generally though, being able to support a larger army trumps getting a few units out faster, given how late this Virtue will necessarily come.

          Verdict: Good for small maps or peaceful builders who want to respond fast. A red herring for aggressive warmongers.




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          You have to go through here if you're going further in Industry. It's a lot of production.

          Verdict: It's thunder was stolen by Internal Trade Routes 100 turns ago.




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          Going to work out to 2 or 3 Health per city. One of the best Health benefits in the game. However, it scales up by number of cities, which undermines it's effect. By the time you get to the point where this would really be a huge bonus, you're already likely beyond the -20 Health gate. At that point, further into the Abyss is the only option.

          Verdict: This would be awesome if Health really mattered. It doesn't appear to matter much though.




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          You can de-orbit your own Satellites (outside Rocktopus, which can only de-orbit manually if Supremacy upgraded). So this won't hurt you. Still with Satellites being as cheap as they are it doesn't offer a whole lot of benefits.

          Verdict: Chalk another up to the Industry 3 Synergy.
          Last edited by Aeson; October 14, 2014, 23:45.
          "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

          Comment


          • #6
            If health works anything remotely like it did in Civ 4 (my mind has purged all memories of Civ 5 mechanics as a self-defense mechanism) I don't see how the military +health option isn't wildly OP.

            Comment


            • #7
              If it's like CiV, expansion also slows your tech and virtue advancement rate.
              Indifference is Bliss

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Kuciwalker View Post
                If health works anything remotely like it did in Civ 4 (my mind has purged all memories of Civ 5 mechanics as a self-defence mechanism) I don't see how the military +health option isn't wildly OP.
                It does look very powerful given you can do a lot of "building" with military. Scavenging falls under the same category as it gives Science from killed Aliens/Nests. So an early military force can provide you Health and Science on top of the military power. Given the playthroughs so far ... even on lower difficulty levels Aliens look to be a major nuisance.

                Health is not as important as it was in Civ IV on a per city basis, and is global. Negative Health will drop 10% of Science and 10% of Culture at low levels. Negative health in Civ IV would dramatically alter growth rate, which is a much bigger penalty. At higher levels of negative Health I would expect it scales up, and likely at some point affects growth. But there's some leeway there, and I think running negative Health in CivBE will be something that's important to do at times.

                For instance, if you're at 3 cities and a 4th would drop you to -5 Health, founding the 4th city makes a lot of sense. It will make up for the -10% Science and Culture rather quickly, and eventually should take care of it's own Health.
                "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

                Comment


                • #9
                  I added the Knowledge Virtue analysis ... I had forgotten about this. Will get Industry done sooner or later
                  "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

                  Comment


                  • #10


                    Knowledge does seem somewhat... underwhelming. Although at least as far as civ2 was concerned, tech was everything, so who knows?
                    Indifference is Bliss

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Also in Civ V tech was very powerful and you could tech fastest with a relatively small number of cities.

                      I think Knowledge is meant to be a slow starter that gets stronger later in the game. That's what has been said about it in some of the previews. I do really like the free Agent, and Metaresearch is going to be very powerful in the later stages of the game. It might make a good second tree beeline to grab those after getting what you need for the early game from another one.
                      "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Some changes to the Virtues ... mostly reductions to Knowledge. This is a bit puzzling since it seems to be the weakest initial tree. It's good for a small/tall empire, but I'm not sure small/tall is the way you'd want to play CivBE (at least not for the sake of efficiency, it may be fun to play variants with self-imposed restrictions).

                        CivBE] Virtues balance - Joint Operations can now serve as a prereq for Democratized Quartering. This provides more connections and flexibility for the final tier of Might, like the other Virtue categories.

                        [CivBE] Virtues balance - Decreasing the power of the Knowledge tree
                        - Creative Class now gives 30% of positive Health as Culture (was 50%)
                        - Applied Aesthetics now gives 30% of Culture rate as Energy (was 50%)
                        - Technoartisans now gives 15% of Culture as Science (was 25%)
                        - Networked Datalinks now decreases per city Science penalty by 40% (was 50%)
                        - Memeweb now decreases per city Culture penalty by 40% (was 50%)
                        - Metaresearch Methods now decreases leaf technology costs by 10% (was 20%)
                        "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Added the Industry overview, and updated Prosperity a little.

                          From the playthroughs we've seen, Health is much less important in the game than it should be. This makes Prosperity very hit or miss. The REX bonuses are amazing, the Health bonuses are near useless.

                          The more of the game we see, the less Health looks to matter. This means the Prosperity REX bonuses are much more powerful, and the Prosperity Health bonuses are kinda useless.

                          Basically, go straight to Colony Initiative every game. If you go into Tier 2 and 3, Pioneer Spirit, Economy and Nature's Bounty are still good. The rest is underwhelming unless you just want a Healthy empire for the role-playing aspect of it.

                          I'll leave the rest of the analysis as-is for when Health is given some teeth.
                          Public Security in Might is similarly affected by the state of Health. There's no point to it until Health is changed.
                          "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            With those changes to the Knowledge tree, why would anyone take it?
                            Nothing for turtles like me. Time to learn new strategies.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              It's puzzling to me too. I thought Knowledge seems to be trying to give wide boosts to what generally would be more compatible with a tall playstyle. I thought it needed a boost.

                              Some of that hinges on Trade Routes though. If they reign in Trade Routes then Knowledge becomes more interesting.
                              "tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"

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