I have been brought round to the view thus far that it would be a good idea for the US to send troops, although I would prefer the UN, Liberia asked for the US.
The other thread was getting a little long in the tooth, so I decided to start another.
Here is a good article by Cheney Morris about why we should not send troops to Liberia.
http://www.thehill.com/morris/070903.aspx
Right now, I am more inclined than he is to take a favorable view of a deployment. If we could time-limit it to a year or so, that would be helpful.
He makes the very valid and useful point that 35% of the US population is isolationist, so any long-term deployments are tough to perpetuate.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
I have been brought round to the view thus far that it would be a good idea for the US to send troops, although I would prefer the UN, Liberia asked for the US.
"I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
"You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:
It doesn't matter.
I know, I know. I harp on it, but the fact remains that someone, somewhere is going to get all pissy no matter what we do.
So let's go. Roust the guy, on to the next bad guy.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
i think he misses the point. this is going to be a very low key deployment, 500-1000 combat troops (with a similar number of other troops), to oversee the transition to a new government, train a new army, protect the capital and foriegn nationals, that sort of thing. i also think he fails to take account of the successful british intervention in sierra leone which any action looks likey to be modeled upon.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
C0ckney: As much as I respect what the Brits are doing in Sierra Leone, it has absolutely no political currency here in the States.
this is going to be a very low key deployment, 500-1000 combat troops (with a similar number of other troops), to oversee the transition to a new government, train a new army, protect the capital and foriegn nationals, that sort of thing
I think Americans would be more concerned about doing it right, if we are going to do it. 500-1000 makes it appear like our boys are being given insufficient resources to do the job (whatever the job is). They'll need some Bradleys, for instance, if we are to avoid another Somalia.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
I agree, Dan.
If something's to be done, no half-stepping.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
well i don't think the situation there is at all like somalia. we're talking about overseeing the handover of power from one government to another (which admittedly needs to be worked out), rather than the general anarchy in somalia.I think Americans would be more concerned about doing it right, if we are going to do it. 500-1000 makes it appear like our boys are being given insufficient resources to do the job (whatever the job is). They'll need some Bradleys, for instance, if we are to avoid another Somalia.
i would imagine the plan is to send any US troops alongside a larger UN force, which would keep an eye on the provinces?
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
I also think that no American deployment is low key. Al Qaeda has been able to call us pussies for the last decade for what happened in Somalia.
rather than the general anarchy in somalia
Liberia is only slightly less anarchic.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
Liberians Storm Airport in Plea for U.S. Peace Force
13 minutes ago
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp..._nm/liberia_dc
Last edited by SlowwHand; July 9, 2003 at 13:12.
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
"Hating America is something best left to Mobius. He is an expert Yank hater.
He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
well yes, i can certainly understand the american desire not to go in understrength.Originally posted by DanS
I also think that no American deployment is low key. Al Qaeda has been able to call us pussies for the last decade for what happened in Somalia.
rather than the general anarchy in somalia
Liberia is only slightly less anarchic.
the main difference i see regarding liberia and somalia, is that in liberia, all sides want the same thing. they want taylor to go (one of taylor's own ministers was on radio 4 last week, saying that he (and everyone else) wanted taylor to go), and they want a new government formed which includes elements from the existing government and rebel groups. now of course the details need to be hammered out, but i really can't see this turning into somalia II.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
the main difference i see regarding liberia and somalia, is that in liberia, all sides want the same thing.
That is fickle. We should not rely on that situation lasting more than a minute after our troops arrive.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
well of course, nothing is certain, but i haven't seen any indication that either side would try and break the agreement, because it would lead to massive bloodshed.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
The US isn't going to deploy into a situation that we couldn't control, if push came to shove. What happens if Taylor decides he doesn't want to leave the country after all, for instance?
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
What exactly are we supposed to be doing over there?
There seems to be no end result or goal aside from keeping people from each other throats. Let the europeans, who are so interested in multilateralism, handle this. We're already in one quagmire too many.
"Perhaps a new spirit is rising among us. If it is, let us trace its movements and pray that our own inner being may be sensitive to its guidance, for we are deeply in need of a new way beyond the darkness that seems so close around us." --MLK Jr.
So let's go. Roust the guy, on to the next bad guy.Please, PLEASE, read the articles on this.There seems to be no end result or goal aside from keeping people from each other throats.
There is no one guy we have to roust, and there is an end result.
It's even mentioned in this thread:
The American troop force (which I feel should be greater than 500-1000, just so there's no chance of disaster) will oversee transition of power from Taylor to the rebel allies, who are now the de facto 'official' governing body. With Big Brother America in town, it will be less likely that a renegade warlord will try to disrupt the transition. The U.S. just needs to maintain the peace (which is already there, mind you), diplomatically aid the formation of a new government, and perhaps train a new Liberian army that will keep things in tip-top shape after America pulls out. That's all.
This isn't sending your boys into an inflammatory situation; this is sending in your boys to *prevent* that situation. You know, that 'pre-emptive action' we're all so fond of.
"I wrote a song about dental floss but did anyone's teeth get cleaner?" -Frank Zappa
"A thing moderately good is not so good as it ought to be. Moderation in temper is always a virtue, but moderation in principle is always a vice."- Thomas Paine
"I'll let you be in my dream if I can be in yours." -Bob Dylan
well, when ministers from your own government are publicly saying they can't wait for you to leave office, it should be pretty obvious which way the wind is blowingOriginally posted by DanS
The US isn't going to deploy into a situation that we couldn't control, if push came to shove. What happens if Taylor decides he doesn't want to leave the country after all, for instance?
as i said, nothing is 100% certain in these situations, but as cinch said, US troops would be there to help impliment a negociated agreement, basically smooth the way and prevent any major disruption. i, personally, would hope that a larger UN force would be going in as well, to keep order in the countryside whilst the new government is being set up.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
This isn't sending your boys into an inflammatory situation; this is sending in your boys to *prevent* that situation. You know, that 'pre-emptive action' we're all so fond of.
Very well put.
“I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
- John 13:34-35 (NRSV)
Here's an article showing how fickle the situation is on the ground...
Liberian Rebels Warn of "Fight"
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/3060109.stm
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
And another overview...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Jul12.html
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
the BBC article does make for worrying reading, hopefully both sides can be made to see sense before troops go in. the WP article won't load for me (i did register).
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
Originally posted by C0ckney
the WP article won't load for me (i did register).Liberians Pin Hopes on U.S. Troops
West Africans' Efforts to Keep Peace In 14-Year Conflict Dogged by Failure
By Karl Vick
Washington Post Foreign Service
Sunday, July 13, 2003; Page A18
MONROVIA, Liberia, July 12 -- When a U.S. military team arrived by motorcade at Monrovia's commercial port last week, they surveyed the rusting hulls and the collapsed quay. Behind them loomed a two-story building that serves as a reminder of the failure of the last peacekeeping mission that ventured into this West African nation.
Liberians know the bright green port headquarters as the place where invading rebels found then-President Samuel K. Doe one day in 1990. The insurgents slaughtered Doe's bodyguards, broke his leg and dragged him to the camp where his mutilation -- he lost both ears -- was recorded on a videotape later peddled in the capital city's markets.
Standing by were peacekeepers from neighboring African states, dispatched to protect political order in Liberia. The West Africans had disarmed Doe's entourage but somehow missed the rebels, who managed to sneak in.
"We need the Americans," said Christopher Shain, a port worker. "The Americans will do better."
A group of West African states is again sending troops to Liberia. A U.S. contingent may or may not follow.
Liberians hope that the deployment of U.S. troops will finally bring peace. But Liberia's tormented history makes the Bush administration hesitant to send U.S. troops here, and determined to keep them on the ground only a few months if they do come.
This lush coastal nation -- founded by freed slaves who returned to Africa before the American Civil War -- is a country that has been at war with itself or its neighbors for 14 years.
Monrovia residents called the fighting that has erupted here twice in the past month the worst in memory. More than 500 civilians died in house-to-house fighting after the failure of a peace accord signed last month between the government of President Charles Taylor and two rebel groups.
The fresh turmoil brought calls from the United Nations for the United States to send troops to stop the violence here, as Britain did in Sierra Leone to the west and France did in Ivory Coast to the east.
The three conflicts are part of one roiling regional war, a tangle of personal, tribal, class and historical conflicts that analysts say come together in the person of Taylor. The Liberian president faces an indictment by a U.N.-backed court for crimes against humanity for his support of militias that carried out forced amputations, rapes and other war crimes in Sierra Leone.
"We live in a fear psychosis," said Roman Catholic Archbishop Michael K. Francis, who wrote a pastoral letter warning that a "culture of evil" had taken root under Taylor.
Bush made Taylor's departure a condition for dispatching U.S. troops. Analysts said that a force as small as 1,000 U.S. troops would ensure the credibility of an "international stabilization force," made up mostly of Africans, expected within two weeks.
Without promising more than logistical coordination and financial assistance, the Pentagon dispatched a team to Ghana last week to coordinate with the regional force. In addition, a "humanitarian assessment team" arrived by helicopter in Monrovia last Monday to assess the situation on the ground.
Even Taylor's most loyal fighters say they are ready for peace.
"It's a no-winner, no-loser war," said George Lasimeto, who joined Taylor's "Small Boys Unit" in 1991 at age 14. Taylor institutionalized the use of child soldiers.
"It's difficult for either side to obtain military victory, so I'm happy the Americans will come to end it."
"We're tired of war," said Gen. Eric Goon, a wounded member of Taylor's elite militia, the Anti-Terrorism Unit. He was interviewed at Monrovia's John F. Kennedy Hospital, where the few wards that are open treat only war wounds and cholera.
Both Lasimeto and Goon were wounded pushing back the latest rebel offensive last month. Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy, or LURD, approached from the north, the direction of Guinea, their main patron. Although some call LURD a tribal movement because its ranks are dominated by Mandingos, others see it as a religion-oriented group. A handout circulating in Monrovia calls for jihad against Liberia's Christian establishment.
Analysts say LURD is best understood as a client of the neighboring states, most notably Ivory Coast, that Taylor destabilized by sending rebels into their territory.
"The problem is when it's reduced to the tribal level," said one Liberian academic, who like many prominent residents asked not to be identified, citing fear for their safety. "This is where it will be prolonged and this is where it will be serious."
LURD, though apparently on good behavior last month in Monrovia, where residents say the group shared looted food with ordinary citizens, became notorious for leveling villages in the north.
A second rebel group operates south of the capital. The Movement for Democracy in Liberia, or Model, is sponsored by Ivory Coast and includes many Krahns, the tribe of former president Doe. With only 1,000 fighters, it is one-third the size of LURD. The groups field a combined force that is one-tenth the size of the 40,000 militiamen Taylor commands. By many accounts, however, Taylor has been unable to pay his forces since fighting shuttered the timber operation that provided a large share of his cash.
The lightly armed fighters appear fearsome in the women's wigs and marijuana haze that mark the warrior culture here. When reporters showed up at a key government-held junction last week, 40 minutes outside Monrovia, the child soldiers burst into a song about rape and danced with pieces of a human skeleton.
Liberians expect most of the fighters to give up in the face of American force.
"To fight an American Marine, it's unimaginable," said Philip Moore, editor of the Independent newspaper, whose offices were emptied by the government forces who looted much of the capital after driving out LURD. "Once they see American Marines, everybody will put down their guns and run away."
According to the model that has worked well in Sierra Leone, the arrival of a peacekeeping force must be followed by the disarming of militias, and then by the creation of a professional national army. Diplomats and analysts caution that elections can be held only in an atmosphere of relative security.
Taylor won the presidency in 1997 with his militia threatening to resume fighting if he lost. He got 70 percent of the vote.
The peace accord calls for Taylor to cede power to a transitional government. But few here expect Liberia's next leader to emerge from either of the rebel movements, which are dominated by warlords.
On Friday, LURD alarmed Monrovia residents by threatening new attacks if Taylor remains after peacekeepers arrive. Bush was scheduled to meet with U.N. Secretary General Kofi Annan on Monday to discuss whether the peacekeepers will include Americans. By then he is expected to have the U.S. assessment team's report.
All that I can say is that someone needs to move in either Americans or UN troops, and in large enough number to settle the two (or more?) sides down, and not in some piss poor number and get their ass kicked by the side that won't like their presence.
Resume the peace, build national army + some kind of functional democracy that this army will protect and leave... 1year to cool them down + 3-5 year effort to sort them out and get the country back on its feet again
Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
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We send a platoon of D-boys in Little Birds, supported by four chalks of Rangers to extract him and remove him by force?Originally posted by DanS
The US isn't going to deploy into a situation that we couldn't control, if push came to shove. What happens if Taylor decides he doesn't want to leave the country after all, for instance?
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Palin-West 2016. Pretty please?
Hey, I would support that. The book and movie businesses need the work!
At least they should have IFVs this time!
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
Given the US' eagerness to 'change the regime' in Iraq because of Saddam's human rights abuses, it would be the ultimate hypocrisy not to intervene in Liberia - especially given the historical ties between both nations...
Get into Monrovia NOW!
"History is a lie that has been honed like a weapon by people who have suppressed the truth. Centuries from now, your own history will also be suppressed."
OK, MOBIUS is supporting it. I guess that means we shouldn't do it.
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
That settles the issue for me at least.Originally posted by DanS
OK, MOBIUS is supporting it. I guess that means we shouldn't do it.
US involvement in Liberia should be part of an international effort. NATO, UN, I don't care... but we can be playing policeman. The world needs to step up.
Read the bit about the US force being the lead force in a multinational African force.
When all else fails, blame brown people. | Hire a teen, while they still know it all. | Palin-West 2016. Pretty please?
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