Early Landing Comparison Game #3

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by La Fayette
I go on playing without helper programs ... with poor results compared with the best players


Very slow start, several strong barb attacks in BC years, growth of the SSC delayed to AD years, 'satisfying' growth (1 tech/turn) between 500AD and 1200AD, many unwanted techs in the endgame, oh well!

After discovering fusion power I usually:

a) set tax to 100%
b) sell librariies, etc.

All the gold gets used to rush freights to build SS parts. Clearly you don't do this - why not?

RJM at Sleepers

[Heerscher]

Here's my game summary. Since I didn't have much time to play (this game is played in just two days ) I could not made a detailed log. For ELG 4 I hope to make a detailed log, but don't count on it since I generally only have time to play at night

After trying the large map I restarted on the medium, since it seemed easier to me, after reading about solo's experiences on the large. It didn't result in a great landing date but since it is my first diety win on a customized map (I used to play the world map all the time), I am fairly happy with it.

GOVERNMENTS

Monarchy 1850 BC
Republic 325 BC
Democracy 940 AD
Fundamentalism 1867 AD

WONDERS

MPE 950 BC
Hanging Gardens 675 BC
Colossus 450 BC
Shake's 380 AD
Cope's 40 AD
Leo's 580 AD
Mike's 660 AD
Isaac's 1000 AD
Apollo 1830 AD

SSC STATS

size 8 40 AD
size 12 420 AD
size 21 1060 AD
max. size 27

TECHS

Trade 1300 BC
Invention 20 AD
Railroad 1260 AD
Automobile 1772 AD
Nuclear Power 1840 AD
Computers 1804 AD
Flight 1764 AD
Space flight 1828 AD

AC arrival 1916

Heerscher

[Heerscher]

Some comments on my game:

After a reasonable start, things started to slow down in the middle game. I could not deliver enough caravans, due to lack of production and my cities (except for my SSC) didn't grow enough, due to happiness problems.

[Heerscher]

Oops, something went wrong with my first post: it was not finished yet, but anyway:

1) I could not celebrate my helper cities and my colonie (Lindholm) up to size eight quickly enough through WLT*D's. Happiness problems started to decrease only after Mike's. I kept my luxeries generally at 30%. As a result of this, no city except for my SSC, reached the magic ten shields production. Caravan and trireme production was to low. I didn't rushbuy many caravans since this would decrease profits.

2) I messed up my spaceship

so I will read the thread about it in the Great Library more carefully for my next game.

3) I switched to democracy very late, since corruption levels were low and switching to democracy would only add up to my happiness problems, because triremes abroad would make two citizens unhappy. I could have rehomed them to my SSC, but that would ruin its production. I didn't have enough cash to rushbuy all of its needed buildings.

Heerscher

[La Fayette]

Originally posted by rjmatsleepers


After discovering fusion power I usually:

a) set tax to 100%
b) sell librariies, etc.

All the gold gets used to rush freights to build SS parts. Clearly you don't do this - why not?

RJM at Sleepers

I didn't do that because my SS was already on its way to AC when I discovered Fusion Power ((between 1500AD and 1750AD, one turn sooner means 10 years, against 4 years shorter flight time with Fusion for my ship).

[solo]

I finally finished my large map game, with a landing in 1535 AD, quite a contrast to the results with a medium map.
There was plenty of room for improvement here, and I expect some others playing this map may do a good bit better.

Without huts, large map games are considerably harder, since the AI are harder to reach and delivery payoffs on a large map are scaled down by 4/5. The fact that more cities are allowed before impacting happiness is pretty much nullified by the fact that none of these extra cities are free. They must be bribed away or built using settlers, and doing this takes time and resources away from the main task of landing early. Add on the higher research costs, and hutless large map games begin to present a real challenge and the optimal strategy for playing them is not at all obvious.

At the start, some black clicking told me I was located on a relatively small island, without easy access to any of the large land masses other than two small, neighboring islets (unless continent #1 was very close. I found out much later that it was). So I decided to research Trade first, even giving it more priority than a better form of government. To do well, I believed I needed Marco Polo’s as soon as I could get it built, so I took the chance that one of the AI might have Monarchy or Republic ready for a trade by that time. I was disappointed, since the best they had to offer was Ceremonial Burial. Since it would have been 4 more steps of research to get to Republic, it made sense to go to Monarchy first.

I was also delayed a few times by barb attacks, once near the beginning, when a potential settler had to be converted into a phalanx to protect my SSC. Later on, the barbs swooped in again and captured Viborg, one of my helpers. These were minor setbacks though, compared to the damage caused by some of my mid-game decisions. Off to a bad start already, I was not inspired to play my best, and delayed my SSC growth to size 21 for a long time when I made the mistake of researching Math-Astronomy ahead of Engineering-Sanitation.

The setup was not promising for early landings, as even the nearest AI were at a good distance, and the only way I could find to reach them early on with triremes was by making a detour along the southern ice cap. This effectively doubled the time it took to deliver caravans to the Spanish, Babylonians, and later on, to the Mongols. More resources had to go into building a fleet of triemes to speed up trade, and with so many boats and settlers to support, it made more sense to remain in Monarchy until Republic was needed for celebrations.

Later in the game, the larger scale presented by a large map game made it seem to take forever to set up useful colonies and implement an expeditious system of trade. Once a system of accelerated trade finally got established, delivery payoffs were quite substantial, but this was delayed almost beyond when it became useful. During most of the game, it was quite struggle earning enough to get the SSC and other cities up and running. Near the end, I had much more gold than I needed to do everything I wanted. The trouble is that it just took too long during this game to reach that point where income is no longer a problem. Almost 1000 gold was left over after building a space ship, gold that might have come in very handy earlier in the game.

So to conclude, there’s still a lot for me to learn about how to play well on large maps without huts. Below is the summary. I may not have time to type up and post a detailed log, since it came to well over 10 written pages.

ELG #3, Large Map Game Summary

Monarchy – 1250 bc
Republic – 225 bc
Democracy – 940 ad

Marco Polo’s – 1450 bc
Shakespeare’s – 175 bc
Colossus – 400 bc
Copernicus – 320 ad
Newton’s – 600 ad
Michaelangelo’s – 840 ad
Darwin’s – 1120 ad
Apollo – 1500 ad

Size 8 – 75 bc
Size 12 – 20 ad
Size 21 – 580 ad
Max. size – 28 in 1300 ad

Key civ contact – 800 bc

Trade – 2000 bc
Invention – 580 ad
Railroad – 1060 ad
Automobile – 1260 ad
Nuclear Power – 1400 ad
Computers – 1420 ad
Flight – 1440 ad
Space Flight – 1500 ad

AC arrival – 1535 ad

I’m curious to see how some others fared. Attached is the save on the turn of the launch.

[rjmatsleepers]

Originally posted by Heerscher

2) I messed up my spaceship

Look on the bright side - in the next game you will gain a lot of time just from building the space ship more efficiently.

I suspect you need to "unlearn" some of the techniques you use in a normal game. I notice that most of your cities have city walls and defensive units. Have faith, you really can avoid war with the AI civs by tech gifting.

RJM at Sleepers

[Cliff]

I finally got some time to finish my Power Democracy approach to this early landing game and I was able to beat the best landing dates of comparison game #2 which was my goal. I landed on AC in 955AD.

I will (maybe) post a detailed log later but for now I will just post the summary and the save. After launch I sent out some troops and killed off everyone. A handful of respawned civs with a size 1 city or a settler remain in the game.

Governments
Monarchy 2250BC
Republic 60AD
Democracy 460AD
Communism/Fundamentalism Not used

Wonders
HG 1200BC
MPE 1500BC
Pyramids 225BC
ST Not built
Colossus 125BC
Copernicus Built by Spanish
Isaac's Not built
Leo's 420AD
Magellan's 560AD
Michaelangelo's 80AD
JSB 200AD
Darwin's 700AD
SETI Not built
Apollo 920AD

SSC stats
size 8 200AD
size 12 360AD
size 21 660AD
max. size 22

Techs
Trade 1750BC
Invention 400AD
Railroad 700AD
Automobile 760AD
Nuclear Power 840AD
Computers 860AD
Flight 880AD
Space Flight 900AD

Key civ contact 1500BC

AC arrival 955AD

[solo]

Cliff,

A nice job fulfilling your goal of a sub 1000 AD landing, and welcome to the club! You also have the distinction of doing this without building Copernicus or Isaac's!

In the large map start for #3, your approach might have been the best one to use. I'll be interested in any changes you make to your strategy if you decide to participate in the next medium map game, which will begin shortly.

La Fayette,

You knocked off another 100 years from your last result without really trying. I detect more energy spent on your new records in the scenarios. Nice job there!

Heerscher,

Not bad for your first game, and I bet you will do a lot better in following games if you decide to continue playing. I hope you enjoyed this style of play enough to try a few more games.

[Heerscher]

RJM at Sleepers,

All the city-walls and the huge stacks of defensive units were built after my space-ship was launched. Since it needed 30 years to reach AC, I had a lot of time to built up a military. In most cities factories were built before Space flight (I didn't have much cash, so I figured I could at least speed up space ship parts production by increasing production). So after my launch all of my cities were pretty productive and I killed time during the journey of my spaceship, by fighting big naval wars with the other AI civs, all of them with great results. However, they only sued for peace if I captured a city, or killed a lot of their land units.

Solo,

I will definitly participate in ELG 4! I expect to learn a lot of these games, probably more than I ever learnt in my time before I 'discovered' Apolyton. It's really great to see such a lively and skilled community, still playing with great enthousiam a game that's nearly 8 years old! Never seen that before.

[Scouse Gits]

Alpha Centauri 996
I am pleased to record a sub Millennium landing (just) ... even though I'm only fourth at time of writing. Still plodding through the post launch turns!

Things sagged during the middle game. Brief details follow. I will post more thoughts later.

Governments
Revolutions to:
Monarchy in 2450BC
Republic in 725BC
Democracy in 220AD

Wonders
Hanging Gardens 1050BC
Marco Polo's Embassy 750BC (Key Civ contact)
Colossus in 625BC
Shakespeare's Theatre in 275BC
Copernicus' Observatory in 100BC
Isaac Newton's College in 220AD
Michelangelo's Chapel 380AD
Darwin's Voyage in 520AD
Apollo Program in 880AD

Events
Kaupang 8 in 550BC
Kaupang 12 in 175BC
Kaupang 21 in 160AD
Kaupang 31 at time of launch

Trade in 1900BC (1st Trade Route in 900BC)
Invention 160AD
Railroad in 480AD
Automobile in 600AD
Nuclear Power 660AD
Computers in 760AD
Flight in 780AD
Space Flight in 860AD
Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1 in 960AD

AC 996AD

---------------------------

SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

Alpha Centauri 1456
As ever I built a mean and flimsy ship held together with string and chewing gum that takes forever to land! More details to follow.

Governments
Revolutions to:
Monarchy in 2050BC
Republic in 225BC
Democracy in 860AD

Wonders
Hanging Gardens 775BC
Marco Polo's Embassy 575BC (Key Civ contact)
Colossus in 350BC
Shakespeare's Theatre in 140AD
Copernicus' Observatory in 380AD
Isaac Newton's College in 540AD
Michelangelo's Chapel 800AD
Darwin's Voyage in 940AD
SETI in 1260AD
Apollo Program in 1380AD

Events
Kaupang 8 in 125BC
Kaupang 12 in 80AD
Kaupang 21 in 580AD
Kaupang 24 at time of launch

Trade in 875BC (1st Trade Route in 350BC)
Invention 720AD
Railroad in 880AD
Automobile in 1060AD
Computers in 1240AD
Nuclear Power 1280AD
Flight in 1300AD
Space Flight in 1360AD
Launch 15-1-1-1-1-1 in 1420AD

ETA on AC 1456AD

---------------------------

SG(2)

[solo]

SG(2),

Another member of the sub 1000 AD club in good standing! Nice job!

As predicted, my large map date is no longer the best. Now it is the worst! I'll be interested in seeing your city layout when your save is posted, plus further details about both games.

Beware, though! I will have another large map start accompanying game #4, and your days as top dog in that department might be numbered!

[Scouse Gits]

Thanks solo ... I'm only top dog until somebody posts a better date!

I've played most of my Civ on large or giga maps so early empire building or semi-sleazing is second nature. What I must learn is the correct strategy for each map and size of world.

I am several turns away from landing but I will email you the save during the launch year.

---------------------

SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

Medium Map Save

---------------------------

SG(2)

[Scouse Gits]

Large Map Save

---------------------------

SG(2)

[Elephant]

I don't know if I'm going to make the deadline for #3; Saturday may be a wash depending on the weather.

I am nearing 1000BC right now, hurting for money but trying to get trading going. Early game summary:

Trade: 2350BC
Marco Polo: 1900BC
Republic: 1500BC

I tried a new variant of going for Trade first (Bro/Alp/Cur/CoL/Tra) and building Marco Polo as quickly as possible (actually could have been a little earlier by sacrificing a city build, but I needed the fourth). At 1900BC nobody else had Monarchy or Republic, but Lit was available from one civ and CerBur from three. I could have gone for immediate Monarchy, but I promised to try Early Republic and I liked the possibilities of the river system. The techs that were available from the AI were Cer, Hor, Lit, Map, Mas, Mys, PT, Pot, War, Whe, and Wri. I was working on Write at the time, so I took that as well as Map, Lit, Mys, and Cer. This set up a situation where I could select Philosophy as my next tech (I had 70 beakers already in the bag), with a freebie Republic and a next selection of Medicine. I then monkeyed with my beaker production a little bit to get Philosophy at the end of 1500, so I could do an OEDO revolt to Republic. The problem was that I was not ready with Temples yet, so everything else had to stop (except for getting a boat in the water) to build them, and I was pretty much out of gold. A 5th city was built before Republic, which led to some scrambling of Warriors and Elvi as the extra red face hit two existing cities. I am now trying to get the first two caravan deliveries overseas before 1000BC. The next few are going to be reserved for Shakes, and I am trying to decide between the two 4-special sites for the SSC. 55,71 has ocean access and a Whale; 59,69 has the nice river system and a city at each of the three deltas. Decisions, decisions...

EDIT: Oh yes, KeyCiv contact 1900BC (in fact, All Civs contacted, and Vikings were Supreme)

[Zenon]

ELCG 3 Large Map
1415 AD Landing

Governments
Monarchy 1850 BC
Republic 60 AD
Democracy 700 AD

Wonders
MPE 775 BC
Lighthouse 700 BC
Colossus 200 BC
ST 60 AD
Copernicus 280 AD
Isaac's 560 AD
Darwin's 880 AD
SETI 1220 AD
Apollo 1360 AD

SSC stats
size 8 160 AD
size 12 240 AD
size 21 660 AD
max. sizen 25 in 1060 AD

Techs
Trade 1000 BC
Invention 400 AD
Railroad 860 AD
Automobile 1060 AD
Nuclear Power 1240 AD
Computers 1220 AD
Flight 1260 AD
Space Flight 1340 AD

Key civ contact 775 BC

AC arrival 1415 AD

A difficult game. Less than average terrain, an isolated home continent and AI`s not in good trading distance. The Spanish were to close (the map size factor really hurts when it takes out the profit you need to get an early rush buy economy running) and at the same time difficult to reach. The way to the Greeks had Continent 1 in between, as I found out shipping a caravan arround it for ages. The others were to far in the beginning. Building the Lighthouse was probably a good decision but more early ressources had to be spent on this. After trade I often set the science rate to zero, just to keep trade going and to build a few improvements. Then ST was delayed because the Chinese almost beat me to Colossus. On this map I didn´t want to go without it. So for a long time I had the feeling of constantly struggling against the circumstances. It seems, though, I was not the only one struggling with this game

Only after SSC growth (very late, too) and establishing trade lines both with the Spanish and the Greeks the game took on speed and went on easily. I even had 2 techs a turn after SETI without any delay to a quick start. There was cash left in the end and I could have sold a lot more improvements.

I post the launch sav, too. I´ll be happy if I don´t have to finish the last turns. More after a break

Zenon

[solo]

Zenon,

I think building the Lighthouse made a big difference and found myself wondering why I didn't do this after I had finished my game. So far you've done the best with this difficult map, even after some delay in building up your SSC. Well done!

[SCG]

eek! already starting game #4 and i haven't gotten much more than a good look at the starting point of game #3 Civ is turning into a spectator sport for me! I hope to eventually finish this one, just not sure when (and if you've been reading my posts in the succession game threads, you know that could be a while )

[Scouse Gits]

Very well played Zenon

Building the Lighthouse was an inspired move and must have boosted early trade on this awkward map.

-----------------------

SG(2)

[rjmatsleepers]

Early Landing #3 - Large Map

Governments
Republic 825 BC
Democracy AD 1700

Wonders

ST AD 260
Copernicus AD 680
Isaac's AD 1620
Darwin's AD 1810
Apollo AD 1853

SSC stats
size AD 140
size 12 (forgot to write it down )
size 21 AD 1794 (max)

Techs
Trade 175 BC
Invention AD 1360
Railroad AD 1756
Automobile AD 1786
Nuclear Power AD 1808
Computers AD 1832
Flight AD 1800
Space Flight AD 1846


AC arrival AD 1881

Not a very exciting landing date, but not too much to report either. I had only made contact with 3 civs prior to building the apollo program. My SSC was stuck at size 18 for a long time through lack of food. I managed to block my SSC supply a couple of times because I delivered to a city that was demanding the goods insted of to the city with which I already had trade routes - I need to watch that in future. I was still receiving gifts from my allies while I was building the SS I have a more detaile log and other saves available in case anyone is interested.

RJM at Sleepers

[Grigor]

Well, I finished this one. I was trying to finesse the early monarchy for a short time before Republic, and I was able to get two wonders down by 1150bc, but then I lost the thread. My SSC had eternally blocked commodities from one careless turn and I neglected to grow the helpers so had the luxuries at 20 most of the game. I never had 1-turn science from beakers alone.

Summary Format

Governments
Monarchy 2450bc
Republic 725bc (discovered 1150bc)
Democracy 140ad
Communism/Fundamentalism --

Wonders
HG --
MPE 1150bc
ST 300bc
Colossus 1650bc
Copernicus 750bc
Isaac's 120ad
Leo's --
Michaelangelo's 960ad
Darwin's 620ad
SETI --
Apollo 1360ad

SSC stats
size 8 300bc
size 12 150bc
size 21 240ad
max. size 37 1420ad

Techs
Trade 1950bc (yes!)
Invention 100ad
Railroad 440ad
Automobile 880ad
Nuclear Power 1480ad
Computers 1180ad
Flight 1020ad
Space Flight 1320ad

Key civ contact 1150bc

AC arrival launch 1670 arrive 1706 -well-a bit of work to do on the endgame...


Nobody can read the stuffed saves from my mac, so I won't attach one.

[solo]

The comparison tables are ready for this game, so I'll post them. Thanks to the eight people posting their results in the medium map game and to 4 others who tried the difficult large map game.

Medium Map Comparison Table

(My apologies to players with names exceeding 5 characters, as only 5 spaces are available in each column of the table.)

The medium map game showed the best results yet, partly because all players are still tinkering with the system, trying to find the best way to play these games. The uncommonly good SSC site and the excellent layout helped produce 4 sub-1000 AD scores, the first ever in these games. All players showed improvement in this game.

[solo]

Large Map Comparison Table

I proved in this game that going for trade before a better form of government was not the best strategy, as my own date was beaten handily by SG(2) and Zenon. Zenon understood the limitations of this map best when deciding to build the Lighthouse wonder, and also showed that SSC growth can be delayed by using caravans for more trade early in the game.

[La Fayette]

Beautiful, as usual
Just one question: why is your key civ contact -800 on the large map, with Marco in -1450?

[Elephant]

I am still soldiering on, with ST built in 650BC, beginning WLTCD, got Cst & Eng, researching San. Roughly comparable to your Medium game, Solo, perhaps 3 or 4 turns behind; I went for Trade and Marco Polo first, then Republic; you went for Early Republic, then Trade. I doubt I will be able to finish by next weekend. I always do poorly in mid-late game anyway.

Do you have saves of your Medium game, say 3000, 2500, 2000, 1500, 1000, 500BC, and 1AD? I'd like to compare more closely.

[Elephant]

My "lunchtime analysis" on the comparisons between your tech path and mine is that the benefits of getting Marco Polo a little earlier do not outweigh the liabilities of delaying my government switch. I took a few extra techs from my first round of Marco Polo trades, which increased the "cost" of finishing Republic (but brought in Philosophy, which set up Medicine nicely), but getting Rep in 1500 lost out on 10 turns of extra trade. I think I will try Early Republic/Early Trade next round.

[solo]

SCG,

I was wondering where you were, and too bad about missing the deadline. You should know that I have used the "switch" again to get a supply of Uranium in my SSC, so I have become devoted to using it. I also had an instance of it working on a non-cycle turn, which mystified me a bit. About 10% of the time I try it, I end up liking and keeping the result.

Monk,

Too bad to see you missed out on this one. I hope things are going okay with you.

La Fayette,

When MPE was built my key civ, the Mongols, had been learning Iron Working, a tech I wanted, so I did not want to slow them down by contacting them. It turns out that the Russians, also working on that tech, learned it first in 800 BC. So I traded with them for the tech and made first contact with the key civ right afterwards to give them Iron Working, so as not to waste their accumulated beakers.

Elephant,

I have collected the saves you requested and will attach them below. Going to trade first did not work in the large map game, since there was a big delay getting out of Despotism. I lost 12 to 16 turns of being in a better government to Zenon and SG(2), respectively, which probably cost me the half dozen turns I came in behind at the end. With better MPE luck, this trade first idea might have paid off. On a medium map, where research goes faster, going to trade first may still not be a bad idea, as seems to be the case in your own game.

[Elephant]

Thanks. I'll take a look and comment later this week.

Best wishes in #4. Looks like the competition is heating up. I am glad that Marco Polo is getting more appreciation: the neglected art of Diplomacy! Wish I could put RL on hold and catch up with you guys...