Normal maps vs. Huge maps
I would like to start a discussion on the differences between standard-sized maps and the huge maps that some of you play with, like Nordicus' world map.
I play with normal-sized maps, and six players, and am designing the Med mod to fit these parameters. One of the things I want to do eventually is have different verisons of the Med mod for different map sizes and numbers of civs.
For those of you who favor huge maps, what files need to be adjusted for play with these maps? Also, what factors of the game get distorted because of the larger distances and, perhaps, numbers of cities each civ has? These two questions are related, I know, but both need to be asked.
On a huge map, if you attempt to conquer the world, you will run into the empire size limits. You have to disband a lot of cities in order to avoid lethal unhappiness.
Being farther away also means you have to be more aggressive in order to reach the most distant AI before it builds the alien.
My girlfriend and I regularly have played the various Medieval mod incarnations on the gigantic map setting, and two main problems crop up:
The AIs are never as aggressive as we are in sending settlers or stealth units to new islands/continents, so we always have territory as an advantage;
and on the default resource level, trade works well enough, but the entire world may have, say, only 2 or 3 bananas, not much for a monopoly; maxing out the setting fixes this while overloading the # of resources.
Otherwise, the mod translates quite well to a large map.
What's the expiration for the East India Company? On a big map, I usually find the extra movement point really helpful.
Also, as mentioned, the empire sizes (if you're playing CD's mod) are pretty low for large maps. Restoring them to their original values would be helpful. Especially Fascism: 45 cities on a gigantic map is nothing.
Most of these problems seem fixable. Keep the imput coming; this is just what I wanted.
Btw, East India goes out with Mass Production.
Another aspect of the gigantic-map Medieval mod games that makes much mischief beyween Kathleen and I is: who gets to Lighthouse, Ramayama and Confucius Academy first; that usually clinches which of us will shoot ahead in expansion, of course. Sometimes an AI will get one or more of these, but again, they never seem to use them to build on rich new lands.
And while I've seen in the forums that the Forge is too potent at 50% production, in our games it seems balanced, having so much to do and conquer and all.
I think we need to make a distinction here between large numbers of civs, and large civs (civs with more than 16 or so cities).
Each situation will have its own set of problems, so when you post, please note if you mean one or both of these situations. Note that you can have large civs on normal-sized maps.
Good point, Wes; all of my comments here refer to 8 civs only
I like to play the game with 8 civs on a gigantic map, I think this makes each game last a lot longer. (sometimes I can play on one game for 3 - 4 days(not solidly of course)) whereas if I just want a quick game I put it on a small map with 5 civs.
One quick fix you can do on your own: Open the govern.txt, in the default gamedata directory, and change the line TOO_MANY_CITIES_THRESHOLD 25
for each government to whatever setting you think would be appropriate for the civ sizes you play with.
Getting the AIs to be more expansionistic can be done, but it gets complicated. Different flis and aips have code for telling when continents are full, and to give bonuses to settling islands. Others lines describe stressing ships over land units. Still others dictate whether to build settlers or not, and how many to build at any one time.
Myself, I feel that once you get above 20 or so cities, it is just more of the same. I will build more than that if the opportunity arises, but I usually design my maps so that the AIs each have space for about 15 good cities on their home continent. This is for the initial founding stage. The later government types are for when you conquer other civs, and for sea and space cities. For me, then, the settings that CD developed are about right.
This is about what the game designers set the AIs up for as well, so to increase it, and do it without unbalancing other aspects of the game, is pretty involved.
[This message has been edited by WesW (edited April 29, 2000).]
I have played on huge maps for more than ½ year now.
I have started writing.
Send my comments tomorrow.
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Woodstock was here!
About a month ago I wrote a terrain file for WesW's Mod which allowed units to move faster, this was written specifically with large maps in mind. I am also working on other files to modify WesW's mod to make it easier. Unfortunately I'm not sure how to solve the problem with the AI not sending out enough settlers, as I've not delved into AI that much yet.
The terrain file is avaiable from:
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/terrain.txt
and the readme file is at:
http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/readme.txt
This should be stay combatible with WesW's mod's unless he modifies the terrain files.
I'll upload a DiffDB.txt file and a Const.txt file hopefully by the end of the week, depending on how my coursework goes.
Hey, Wes....
Seems like this Med Mod 3 is something worth checking out after all
Well, pollution.txt has to be changed to account for for civs w/ more massive civilizations (& and incredible amounts of pollution), govern.txt (TOO_MANY_CITIES_THRESHOLD and empire distance values, as well as war discontent due to too many units--> bigger civ=bigger army to defend civ), map.txt, Const.txt, and of course userprofile.txt for the number of civs. Colors.txt ought to be altered as well, in order to prevent repeating colors (confusion) among civs. And I like to mess with risks.txt to increase the strength, frequency, and quantity of barbarians on bigger maps (182 X 364 to 246 X 492) and 32 civs, that way entering any area devoid of actual civilizations won't be a walk thru a park, not with tough, barbarian hordes lurking about.
Finally, depending on the increase in map size, I'd slightly raise by 1 all naval vessels' movement, having so much more water out there.
Prob'ly missed something. Aw well.
Thomas.
HELP - work are taking all my time.
My contribution has to wait until weekend or start next week.
To Nord: Yes you have forgot some issues..... and I (partly) disagree with you for babarians, movements and capitol distance... In what way - I'll tell this later.
See you.....
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Woodstock was here!
I've now uploaded a const.txt file and a DiffDB.txt file, these change things such as distance unhappiness.
The DiffDB.txt only has limited changes mainly reducing the number of starting advances as I don't see why you should start with these especially on big maps.
The files are available from http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/Const.txt http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/DiffDB.txt
and belong in the scenario/Medieval/Default/Gamedata
directory
there is also a readme file for these files at http://www.soton.ac.uk/~ajw898/ctp/readme2.txt
I am glad that you guys making your own changes to the texts. I knew that Nordicus had his own stuff for his world map, and that some others had changed bits and pieces.
The ultimate purpose of this thread was to design variations of the Med mod for use with big maps, big civs, and a combo of the two.
I would be happy if one or more of you who play on these big maps would take over the creation of these variations. This was just something that I would be doing on the side, and it would be basically making changes, sending them out, and asking "Is this what you want?" It would work better if this was being handled by some one who actually used these maps sizes and/or civ settings.
Nordicus, I know that you have a pretty good understanding of the texts, and have already made many, if not most, of the necessary changes. Therefore, if you are not tied down with something else, you would be my recommendation as the one to put this together.
I would keep track of the discussion, and pitch in when you needed work done on the aips or flis or whatnot. For instance, if you change the distance unhappiness setting, you would want to change the fli setting that makes the AIs start making roads when they hit 5 cities.
So, tell me what you think about this.
BirdMan:
I did not mention capitol distance--but thanks for reminding me, that's another thing which needs looking at; the barbarian settings are merely what I like to play with, although it stands to reason that if you keep the number of barbarians the same and increase the map size greatly, the "threat" from barbarians is drastically reduced. I noticed this right away when I moved up: I think it was 200 or so AD before a barbarian tried to attack one of my cities (and by that time, it was still a warrior, travelling alone, and my units were absurdly more sophistocated--there was no "threat" all game, for any civ), but when I made them smarter, stronger, and attacking in greater numbers (stacks), then they were quite a pain in the ass for everyone, even me.
MW:
You're right, DiffDB has nothing whatsoever to do with maps or numbers of civs and so should not be altered for this purpose.
Wes, the main problem (I see) is not the altering of the text files; it's getting enough feedback from people to attempt to arrive at a set-up or two which the majority of people will like...or getting very little before the this is released (such as with my trade goods mod), having to assume & presume & and basically guess it thru by yourself, and then receive questions, complaints, and feedback after it's released....
But am in the process of freeing up a lot of my time here, so I will be very interested in something like this. Count me in.
I am beginning a new map today, and it will take the entire weekend, because I don't have a functional earth world on which to play, and I would very much like to start playing the game again!
Because of the inputs I added in the fli files for larger maps, it is possible to change how the AI behaves if it is in fact a larger world it's in....Just a thought.
quote:
For instance, if you change the distance unhappiness setting, you would want to change the fli setting that makes the AIs start making roads when they hit 5 cities.
Yes, of course. Maybe drop that to 4, because cities will be farther apart, having so much more space avaliable. The way the AI settles has to be increased as well--with more room out there, it doesn't need to pack itself so tightly...it's self-defeating for the AI to do that since it cannot captilize on all the resourses in its vicinity.
Sure, I'll do. Who wants to help?--someone who is more familiar with the Med mod than I (seeing how I have yet to play it)....
Tom.
------------------
"There can be no maximum of creation without a concomitant maximum of destruction, no supreme good without supreme evil"--Heller, paraphrasing Nietzsche.
"YOU MAY NOT BE INTERESTED IN WAR, BUT WAR IS INTERESTED IN YOU."--Leon Trotsky.
"The more passion for the argument, the less evidence for it"--Russel.
[This message has been edited by Nordicus (edited May 04, 2000).]
Hey Nordicus!
You can count me in! I don't (yet) have the hardware to support the oversized maps beyond 90x180, but I can certainly handle some testing. I probably have less knowledge of the Med Mod than a lot of folks around here, but I am willing to play it to fill in the gaps. My work sometimes kicks in (like it has over the past 2 months) where I have no free time, but I don't think that will happen for several months now.
I think that you are right - the changes will end up being something that will be a "best guess" for oversized maps that people can test out and comment on. I suppose that it would still be a good thing if we can make some "basic changes" that others can quickly and easily personalize for their own use.
Good luck with your new map!
Hey, Chuck...
How is it going?
That's good to hear. What kinda system do ya have? Is it just very slow with, say, a 198 X 396 map, or is it really intolerable? I recall you played a little on that last earth map I made...how was that?
Yeah, well, shouldn't be too difficult--the changes (and the changes to the changes) have been steady as I moved up in size, and I doubt a lot of people will want to play on 246 X 492 size of map, but roughly half that size is a 134 X 268 map (having 35,912 tiles), which is still much bigger than the largest default CtP map size (70 X 140, with 9,800 tiles)....
The thing to do, I suppose, would be to find out what size of map everyone plays on...but there have been a couple of polls about that, and no one would say!
Maybe I'll try it again.
Here again are all the map sizes I've inputted...
quote:
24 X 48 map(size_of_world, 1152)
32 X 64 map(size_of_world, 2048)
48 X 96 map(size_of_world, 4608)
64 X 128 map(size_of_world, 8192)
70 X 140 map(size_of_world, 9800)
86 X 172 map(size_of_world, 14792)
102 X 204 map(size_of_world, 20808)
118 X 236 map(size_of_world, 27848)
134 X 268 map(size_of_world, 35912)
150 X 300 map(size_of_world, 45000)
166 X 332 map(size_of_world, 55112)
182 X 364 map(size_of_world, 66248)
198 X 396 map(size_of_world, 78408)
214 X 428 map(size_of_world, 91592)
230 X 460 map(size_of_world, 105800)
246 X 492 map(size_of_world, 121032)
Oh, haven't even started my new map yet! Been putting together the Aip-Specific stuff. It's pretty much done, except for diplomacy
Tom.
Tom,
I’m glad that you are back!
I played your 246x492 world map up to about 1500 AD on a PII 233, 128MB RAM system. It was ok at first and slowed to the point where the AI was taking over 10 minutes per turn by then. I only had 24 Civs playing in that game, which left a LOT of room for expansion. The game wasn’t slow during my turns, of course. I left the game there because it was just too slow.
I have found 90x180 and 12 Civs is pretty much the optimum for my system. I would imagine that most everyone has superior systems than what I have. So it looks like you are right – something around 130x260 range maybe the best place to start. Using simple math, that size of map should accommodate 25 Civs. Perhaps we can focus on maps around this size and then later see about what changes would be needed for even bigger maps, like your 246x492.
I have wondered about the max city sizes. In the past, I have adjusted this value up when playing on a 90x180 map. But I left them alone in my last game and I am wondering if it is better to leave them alone. It just seemed a little more realistic to me as I would have needed more than just military might to conquer the world. Well, it’s my first thought for this project.
Chuck
I have made following changes (to WES'mods) - playing on map size 240x480, 14 civs incl babarians, map ruler for goods put on level 4 (fewer goods than default):
const.txt:
percent river 40
river length 25
scaled_pop 10.000, 30.000 50.000, 100.000 and 250.000
map_size 96x192, 192x386, 240x480 and 288x576
Why?
Big map demands better (faster) ways to explorer and get contact to others civs. This is done by changing the river values.
Don't like default values for pop.
Like big maps (no. 2 and 3 size are best. Will change no. 1 and 4, don't think even my pc can handle the biggest with more that 6-8 civs (and that ridiculos - you will never find the other civs on such a map)).
govern.txt:
cities_thresholds: 1000, 15, 22, 40, 35, 100, 80, 80, 250, 300, 300, 400 and 350.
Why:?
Only the cities_threshold are changed. I didn't want to change the values for the empire_distance, course it would simply be to easy to settle far from the capitol if the "distance-penalty" was lowered. Meaning that IF you want to settle far away from you homeland, you have to make a temple IMMIDIATELY and theater, aquaduct + colliseum short after. In other word, you can't settle anywhere you meet a "confused tribe" if you're poor.
installation.txt:
vision_range for listeningsposts, radar and sonar_buyos changed to 5, 3 and 4.
Why:
Simply because....... that's the way I like it, ah-ha. AI are using listeningsposts.....but I'm not so sure about radar and sonar_buyos.
map.txt:
Only changed values for 1 (the last) for each map size:
Values are more or less like this (60-80 means that map_num_continent varies from 60 to 80):
60-80, 5-6, 5-6, 35-40, 70-80, 12-16, 4-6, 8-12, 0.6, 0.5, 25, 0, 1.0, 7-9.
Why:
Seems like these settings gives some very playable maps (water, cannals, islands and 1 or 2 continents made of 3-5 subcontinents.
units.txt
triremes:
shield_costs 150
max_move 300
greek_fire_trireme
costs 250
move 400
longship
move 500
capacity 3
ship_of_the_line
costs 600
move 700
capacity 3
troop_ship
costs 800
move 1000
capacity 5
submarine
costs 800
move 700
battleship
costs 1500
move 1000
obsolute_advance NULL
aircraft_carrier
costs 2000(!)
defence 200
move 1000
destroyer
costs 800
move 1200
obsolute NULL
stealt_sub
costs 2250
attack 400
defense 200
move 900
plasma_destroyer
move 1200
missile_cruiser
costs 1600
move 1100
galleon
costs 400
move 600
caravel
costs 400
move 600
fighter
costs 500
attack 60
defense 60
cant_build DELETED
interceptor
costs 1000
attack 80
defense 100
move 1500
obsolute NULL
bomber
costs 1300
move 1800
obsolute NULL
C17 transport
costs 1000
point 1000
move 2500
fuel 2500
shield_hunger 30
capacity 2
cant_build DELETED
space_plan
obsolute NULL
stealth_bomber
costs 2250
size med
stealth_fighter
costs 1800
defense 120
move 1500
fuel 3000
helicopter
costs 800
defense 40
obsolute NULL
alpha_transporter
capacity 5 (from 9)
diplomat
move 3 (has to be faster).
mobile sam
defense 50
obsolute NULL
cruise_missile
move 600
fuel 501
obsolute NULL
tank, paratrooper, marines
obsolute NULL
wormhole_probe
vision_range 6
move 500
leviathan
move 40 (makes them more usefull - gives a move of 4 on maglevs)
caravan
costs 480
Why:
Well - most because I like to see (and use) many units. I prefer modern units though they are relative easy victims to the AI's.
In general, modern units has no obsolute advance, meaning that you can build marines, tanks and mobile SAM during hole the high-tech part of the game. Except for the submarine.....
Woodstock, *will* the AIs build post-Modern units if the Modern-age ones are still available? From CD's comments, he thought that the AIs would always choose the older units when given a choice, at least until they filled out their unit quotas.
No - the AIs tends to build the high-tech units. They DO build modern units, but as far as I can see, its a matter of costs.
In a long-going war against an AI, I was met with hoovertanks and plasmas at the start. Later on, it also used mobile sams, tanks and marines to fight against me.
Seems like the AI is calculating whether or not it can afford to rush-buy more expensive units or has to build cheaper ones - but I'm not sure yet. Need to go through some more wars.
One thing more.....
Something has to be ajusted. In my recent game, I have gained more advances by ruins than by "hard work", exchanges and Edisons lab (the 3 last all together)!
Of course the reason is, that I'm investigating every one black spot I can find - therefore I also find most of the ruins. The AIs are not that aggressive in investigation 30-50 tiles away from their homelands and on islands.
What should we do - and where?
- the number of ruins to be reduced?
- or make the AI more interessed to investigate unknown lands?
Comments?
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Woodstock was here!
To reduce the ruins go into the file risks.txt and edit that. The chances will add upto just under 1 the rest of the chance being the chance of nothing being there.
I am going to give the other parts of the Med pack a rest for right now, and try to construct the "large maps/large civs" verison of the modpack. I have made notes from all the posts in this thread, and will go through Madwoodster's files shortly. If any of you have any other suggestions, you had best get them in here!
Well, it didn't take all that long to make the needed changes to the text files. I have not made any changes to the aidata files, as I am still adjusting them for the main mod. The only changes I would make at this time would be to try to get the AIs to keep expanding beyond the number of cities that they do currently.
For those of you who play with large numbers of civs, meaning that standard civ size is about normal, I think that the standard game files should transfer nicely to this type of game. Trying to win by bloodlust would be much harder because of city limits and pollution problems.
Anyway, below I have pasted the readme I put together for the large civs version of the mod. I don't plan on making any further adjustments to the five files listed here, so I won't have to re-do any of them in the future. If I have missed anything that you feel should be included, let me know, and I will put it in, or state why I think the current settings are best.
Large Maps Readme for the Medieval Pack 3.0
By Wes Whitaker
This file describes the general changes made to text files to better suit playing on large and gigantic maps.
Thanks to MadWoodster, TheBirdMan, Nordicus and the others who participated in the Huge Maps thread at Apolyton.
Const:
The length of mountain ranges increased.
Starting distance between civs raised from 15 to 25 tiles.
The time given to the AI to take their turns raised by 40%.
The terrain "box" that is used to place ruins raised from 6x6 to 8x8. This means there there will be only about half as many ruins on a given map as there were previously.
The amount of pollution a civ has to produce to result in anarchy raised from 2,000 to 3,000.
The level at which an eco-pact is broken raised from 150 to 225.
The chance of learning an advance from capturing a city lowered from 50% to 30%.
The number of people represented by each city pop lowered for the Modern and post-Modern ages.
DiffDB:
I adjusted the timeline, shortening the number of years in each turn for the first 100 turns, and lengthening them in later eras. This will give the effect of the Ancient and Medieval eras lasting longer, while later eras will seem to pass by faster.
I reduced the number of advances that the human and AIs may be given at the start of the game.
Risks:
Basically, I reduced the chances of getting good things from ruins, and reduced the amount of gold you receive on Raging Hordes setting by about 40%, on average. I left the Barbarian settings alone.
Pollution:
I raised the threshold for disasters on large and huge maps by about 40%.
Govern:
I reduced the empire distance scale by about 30% to 40%, and increased the max empire distance by about the same amount.
I raised the too many cities threshold and the war discontent max units by 50%, and reduced the penalty for violating these limits by 30% to 40%.
Terrain:
I reduced the movement costs by 30% to 50% for all land types, and 25% for ocean types.
Grassland: 0.66
Plains: 0.66
Tropical Grass.: 1.0
Forests: 1.0
Jungles: 1.5
Hills: 1.33
Mountains: 2.0
Deserts: 1.0
Tundra: 1.0
Glaciers: 2.0
Ocean: 0.75
And in my games, I gave the Diplomat a movement of 400 instead of 200. That also makes the Dip better than the Noble (I also use him as scout).
Glad my files were of use, will try out your suggestions, when I get a chance, but having just finished my 2nd year degree exams, and now starting a summer job on Monday, time is not easy to come by, oh well just have to not sleep. Will let you know if I come accross anything of use, good luck with the AI files, I can only just about get the AI to build improvements I create (even then I'm not sure they are building it correctly, will have to dig through the various threads here at some point)
Check out my latest post in the 5.0 beta thread for the latest info on the "Large" version of the modpack.
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