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Thread: Time for peace!

  1. #1
    Jim0322
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    Time for peace!

    I think I am gaining a better understanding of the game but am still a novice. In any case, in my current game I am playing the Americans and an immediate neighbor is the Romans, I think it is 1920 or so. The Romans and the Indians are at war with me and I have taken/destroyed 3 Roman cities, the biggest had a population of 18 but the pesky Romans still will not agree to peace unless I say I over-extended myself and I am not ready to do that. My people are getting horribly war-weary but my tanks will soon be ready to roll over another Roman city and their cavalry/rifleman.

    When will they agree to peace on my terms???? I want peace and some small incentive and do not want peace and have to pay them for it. They are losing! Why don't they sue for peace?


    Jim

  2. #2
    Arrian
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    You've gotta hurt them pretty badly to force a favorable peace treaty. Three cities probably isn't enough. Take a few more. Did you raze any cities? That pisses them off, and I think may make them less likely to talk peace for a while.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

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    Capt Dizle
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    Bad game design.

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    asleepathewheel
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    sometimes i have found that the AI won't give up for free or give you tribute until you have destroyed most of the offensive units. since you are using tanks, you should also have spies, which you can use to see how many offensive units they have left, and more expensively, where they are located. The Ai doesnt like to give up as long as there is a chance for a counterstrike.


    jimmytrick:

    now that you have unistalled Civ3, is your goal to clog the forums with redundant drivel about a game you don't even play?

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    Cookie Monster
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    [SIZE=1]
    jimmytrick:

    now that you have unistalled Civ3, is your goal to clog the forums with redundant drivel about a game you don't even play?
    Ouch that hurt!

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    Raion
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    The decision is up to you, but it may make other Civilizations not like you in the end.

    Whole civilizations have never given up, only to be defeated in the end, and other civilizations wary of what that leader (you) will do next.

    Wanderers from the demised civilization probably all wonder why their leader (like the Romans) could not see the light of day.

    Let them live or destroy them more, that is the question.

    You are leader, and its up to you.

    By the way, having fun?



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    The game is watching you, and the leaders are stubborn, and will not yield.


  7. #7
    Arrian
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    Originally posted by jimmytrick
    Bad game design.
    In your not-so-humble opinion.

    Failure to capitulate after the loss of three cities is not necessarily bad game design. As a matter of fact, having the AI go all weak in the knees because you took a city is bad game design, in my opinion. That makes the AI such a pushover.

    Jim,

    Concentrate on one foe, hurt them really badly (keep taking and/or razing cities until they will make peace at terms you're ok with) and then turn on the other. Aim to take away luxuries from them. That hurts them just as much as the loss of cities. As a matter of fact, now that I think of it, pillaging their luxuries and resources will also help with getting them to talk peace.

    I aim to take cities that control luxuries. More luxuries will delay the effects of war weariness for your civ, while causing all sorts of problems for the enemy. Even if you take over lux resources you already have, you will cut trade agreements the AI had - agreements you may be able to make instead, thus gaining either money or more resources yourself.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

    The trick isn't to break some eggs to make an omelette, it's convincing the eggs to break themselves in order to aspire to omelettehood.

  8. #8
    Autolicus
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    The AI's refusal to sue for peace is not a flaw in the game design. As in life, one can't start a war and easily stop it whenever one wants. If that were the case, you could start a war with a neighbor anytime you wanted, grab a couple of cities -- or raze them and enslave the workers -- and then ask for peace. That ploy actually does work sometimes, but not repeatedly. Think about it; it makes sense. In real life, if a weaker neighbor realized you were asking for peace merely because things were inconvenient, but planned to resume the massacre at some point in the future, it might well decide to go down fighting.

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    dawidge
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    I've found that they will sometimes not give up at all (the unfortunate side-effects of multi-way MPPs dragging you back into a war before 20 turns of peace).

    The AI clearly understands that it is doing you more harm by wrecking your economy with unhappiness than it could through military force. I just wish that the "war weariness" took into account the relative powers of your enemies.

    If I've been at war with the Japanese for 50 turns and have reduced them to two cities (compared to my 50+) on some sandspit on the other side of the world, my people shouldn't care that the Japanese refuse to come to the bargaining table.

    I should be able to tell theJapaese ambassador exactly what kind of subspecies of gnat I consider him to be and turn off all political relations with him without worrying about war weariness.

    dawidge

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    Jim0322
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    The Romans and I signed a peace treaty, peace-peace, no concessions on either side although I had to tell them I was over-extended in order to get it. The very next turn I attacked an Indian unit (we were still at war) and the Romans declared war on me because of a mutual protection pact.

    Should that pact have been broken when the Romans made peace while the Indians were still at war with me? Is it required to make peace with both in order to make it last more than 1 turn?


    One other question. The Indians have a sizable fleet bombarding my coasts but their troop landings have been quickly mopped up. What is the best way way to deal with an opposing navy when they are very clearly numerically superior? I have lost 2 battleships to ironclads. I thought a battleship would be nearly invincile against ironclads but 2-3 of them easily destroy a battleship.

    Jim

  11. #11
    Arrian
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    Jim,

    If you have railroads, the best way to deal with numerically superior but technologically inferior AI ships is to use artillery to weaken them and then finish them off with Destroyers or Battleships. Railroads let you zap your artillery around wherever you need it, and they have a range of 2, so you can most often reach those ironclads.

    Aren't Mutual Protection Pacts a pain in the ass? Can you wipe Rome out? That may be what you have to do.

    -Arrian
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  12. #12
    Carver
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    Originally posted by Jim0322
    The very next turn I attacked an Indian unit (we were still at war) and the Romans declared war on me because of a mutual protection pact.

    Should that pact have been broken when the Romans made peace while the Indians were still at war with me?

    Jim
    The MPP between the Romans and Indians would still be in full force despite the peace treaty. A military alliance between the two would be broken when one of them makes peace, however. As long as you attack the Indians on your turf the Romans don't have to declare war. But if you attack them in neutral terf or their terf, any MPPs they have will kick in.

  13. #13
    Dr Strangelove
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    Originally posted by dawidge
    I've found that they will sometimes not give up at all (the unfortunate side-effects of multi-way MPPs dragging you back into a war before 20 turns of peace).

    The AI clearly understands that it is doing you more harm by wrecking your economy with unhappiness than it could through military force. I just wish that the "war weariness" took into account the relative powers of your enemies.

    If I've been at war with the Japanese for 50 turns and have reduced them to two cities (compared to my 50+) on some sandspit on the other side of the world, my people shouldn't care that the Japanese refuse to come to the bargaining table.

    I should be able to tell theJapaese ambassador exactly what kind of subspecies of gnat I consider him to be and turn off all political relations with him without worrying about war weariness.

    dawidge
    That's nothing! I've completely destroyed the Japanese and I mean every unit and city, but they still persist! Can anyone say "BUG"?
    "I say shoot'em all and let God sort it out in the end!

  14. #14
    Ephack
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    Sick

    There is often a solution: Say in the beginning that you have over extended yourself, and go to the bargaining table. Ask for a peace treaty, and then ask for cities, tech, gold...
    The last time, I had conquered all german cities but 3. But Bismarck didn't want to make peace. I was a so-called "terrorist". But once on the bargaining table, he aggreed to give me all his cities (except the capital of course), his gold, and his new techs!

  15. #15
    Inverse Icarus
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    or you could just pull a Vietnam / Korea / Afghanistan and go there and fight without ever declaring war officially
    "I've lived too long with pain. I won't know who I am without it. We have to leave this place, I am almost happy here."
    - Ender, from Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card

  16. #16
    Jaybe
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    MPP violations

    Originally posted by Carver
    ... As long as you attack the Indians on your turf the Romans don't have to declare war. But if you attack them in neutral terf or their terf, any MPPs they have will kick in.
    My experience is that you don't violate MPPs unless you attack/bombard on their turf. Attacking on your own turf or in neutral territory is okay.
    JB

  17. #17
    kailhun
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    In my current game. the I was beating the stuffing out of the English but they refused to give me anything in the peace negotiation. No cities, no gold. Even when they were down to six (crappy) cities with just spearmen and one rifleman in London (me cavalry). I had bought four cities and built cavalry there. I was quite happily taking their cities easily. But no 'surrender'.
    Something about backbone. What's the use of having a backbone if the enemy is about to rip it out? It's not as if the war-weariness was noticeable or that it was a drag on my economy. Stupid brits.

    Robert
    A strategy guide? Yeah, it's what used to be called the manual.

  18. #18
    Pyrodrew
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    Re: Destruction

    Originally posted by Jaybe

    My experience is that you don't violate MPPs unless you attack/bombard on their turf. Attacking on your own turf or in neutral territory is okay.
    JB
    That's true, but be careful - attacking/bombarding neutral turf near their cities may hurt your political standings. I had Ghandi on 'Polite' with me. He was 1 of my few competitors, so I decided to destroy some neutral roads that linked some of his cities together (thus destroying the luxury/strategy resources for those outside cities). My next recent visit to him he was 'Furious' & stayed that way the rest of the game.

    Amazing the AI can be smart enough to know something like that, but has NO idea how to use artillery or terrain to it's advantage.

    And sadly the AI Civs rarely (if ever) try to stop me from making my spaceship. I usually turn SpaceRace off now - it's a win that's far too easy.

  19. #19
    Jaybe
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    Re: Re: Destruction

    Originally posted by Pyrodrew
    That's true, but be careful - attacking/bombarding neutral turf near their cities may hurt your political standings. I had Ghandi on 'Polite' with me. He was 1 of my few competitors, so I decided to destroy some neutral roads that linked some of his cities together (thus destroying the luxury/strategy resources for those outside cities). My next recent visit to him he was 'Furious' & stayed that way the rest of the game.

    ...
    Hummer! My 'studies' re MPP were before version 1.17f arrived!

    Having played less than one game since 1.17, I may know less than I thought. One of the things I really enjoy about a game of Civ is to be constantly learning and encountering new aspects of the game (or 'the history')!

  20. #20
    Shadowlord
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    I personally love the fact that the AIs start looking for mutual protection pacts around the same time IG as the alliances system and concern over balance of power began IRL.

  21. #21
    GarethDaragon
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    i finished a game last night where i was nearing the end of the space race, but i lacked the necessary uranium. so my choices were attack japan and its five pitiful cities, or attack china and its 15 city empire. i decided to go for china since the uranium was one city away from my front... i had quite the technological advantage, me with panzers... them with infantry and artillery (which rocks because i can gain artillery as i conquer instead of producing it)...

    anyhow, so i started the war with the specific goal of conquering no more than three cities and then i would sue for peace possibly getting another city or two out of the deal. so i took three cities, but china wouldn't talk to me. at this point japan jumped on the bandwagon and declared war on china. i took three more cities and was outside the capital of china with 6 panzers and 9 artillery. china still wouldn't talk. the only other world power FRANCE declared war on china at this point. so i took the capital. sued for peace (nope, won't talk)... to make an already long story short, up until the time that i took the last chineese city (a pitiful moved capital with only a pop of 3), no matter how hard i tried i couldn't get china to talk to me. not a single french or japaneese military unit ever got into chineese territory since they were permanently one or two turns behind my push.

    i really wanted to spare china, but they just wouldn't let me. i guess i see the point of not surrendering to a hated foe, but at some point shouldn't the chineese leaders have said... hey, maybe we better make peace before the whole sky falls on top of our silly heads? actually it was better that way anyway since once china was gone, i didn't have to worry about culture flipping...

    my one question is this: should a city culture flip when a) you are at war with the city it flips to AND b) there is no border adjacent to the cities in question between the two countries? the only offense china had was when two small cities flipped three turns after i captured them, eventhough they were within my cultural borders completely... found that a little strange.

  22. #22
    Drug zBla
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    listen GarethDaragon, i'm new to the game, so i didn't get the chance to "get to know" the AI of it yet. But more than often, surrender was not an option for extincting (i don't know the word: those who are becoming extinct) nations.

    History thought us that pride is often the greatest murderer of them all.
    Last edited by Drug zBla; April 5, 2002 at 10:21.

  23. #23
    GarethDaragon
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    i guess that's why i'm not the ruler of the "real" world... my sense of self-preservation is a little too high.
    the shows in my mind are almost always better... The Maxx

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    Kinnie
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    I have played a few games where a civ would not talk pease. when that happens you just have to wipe them out. And yes the other civs at times will join in and help you wipe them out. The trouble comes when he has a city on a small island somewhere and that can be hard to find. All this just makes the game fun because each games is a little different.
    kin

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    Shadowlord
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    I haven't really had any trouble getting peace after taking several enemy cities. All I would have to do is stop attacking their cities for a while, and if I held my cities that I'd taken from them, eventually they'd calm down a bit, and I'd be able to talk them into peace by saying "We seem to have overextended ourselves..."

    In my experience, "Our troops still approach your cities!" never worked, it always just made them mad. Even if you control the entire world, except for the one city they hold, you have to say "We seem to have overextended ourselves" or they laugh in your face publicly.

    Of course, I suspect the leaders who refuse to surrender have grown tired of ruling a wimpy nation, and are privately arranging for a plastic surgeon to change how they look so you won't have them executed after you inevitably conquer their civilization... They're showing far-reaching and realistic intelligence here, by seeing ahead to the inevitable fall of their empire, and preparing for it by disguising themselves and sneaking into your society. Maybe they'll have you assassinated after becoming vice president. Or the Minister of State Security if you're a communism. :P

    We must be careful, if the AI keeps showing advanced thinking like this, they just might try nuking our palace while we're in it. We'd better start living in underground bunkers in our most backwards "cities" just in case.

    Oh wait, they already do this! When I nuked and stormed the Egyptians' capital, they responded by nuking London, York, and Paris, all of which I had a palace, forbidden palace, or a private resort for Comrade Secretary of the Communist Party (I.E. Guy who tells everyone else how to think. That is, me .).

    Of course, I did retaliate back. I've nuked around 10 of their cities total, plus I've nuked their new capital a total of 3 times (*evil grin*). I'm sure I must have killed Cleopatra in one of those attacks. I'm just lucky I was in, uh, an undisclosed location*, when their nukes struck York, London, and Paris.

    * "An undisclosed location" means I was hiding on another planet because my government found a Stargate in the rubble of the Egyptian capital...

  26. #26
    ALPHA WOLF 64
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    I had a great game that allowd me to watch the AI in action. I was in the middle and by far the top dog (Regent level-12 total civs) France and China were to the east, every one else but russia (its own 21 city continent) to the west. France attacked China around 1500bc, China had a MPP with India, before long every nation but me and russia were at war with the french. The war was fought almost entirely within my borders but I was ok with that in because France was #2 and closing. Over the next 3400+ years, at no time was France ever totally at peace. When france was pushing forward, some of the smaller countries would make peace. But any time the french were getting pushed back, almost every country would join against the french, even the russians jumped in a few times. It was amazing to watch the realistic (IMO) alliances that sprang up based on the french strength. At one point, the french defeated a stack of 40+ war elephants with minimal losses. Within 2 turns, the Indians and Germans had made peace treaties but when the french attacked an Iroquis city, back in came the aztecs and before long the Indians and Germans were back in again.

    My point is that the until it was down to the final 3 (me, french and russia), poor france was at war because of the multiple MPPs. There should be a peace option that overrules any MPPs, maybe give that as an option "peace overrides MPP with Germans". That way you can see with MPPs there value more than others. Maybe they'll accpet an override of the german MPP but not the Indian MPP, etc.

  27. #27
    ALPHA WOLF 64
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    I wonder if the AI tracks its war somehow. Such as the AI has lost 4 cities and 34 units and has destroyed 2 cities and 18 units. Or does it only look at existing forces, AI has 6 cities/50 units vs my 20 cities/200 units.

    And I hate that the AI wont talk for at least 5 turns even tho it attacked me.

  28. #28
    Arrian
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    I agree about the "peace overides MPP" thing. Frankly, if a MPP partner makes peace, that should break the MPP. There should be a diplo hit because of it, and thus it should be a bit more difficult to make peace with a civ that has a MPP, but once you sign the peace deal, they are out.

    -Arrian
    grog want tank...Grog Want Tank... GROG WANT TANK!

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