I know there have been posts about AI. And probably one addressing this in particular, but Firaxis, when you make your patch, fix the bargaining methods of the AI. When they want two technologies, a luxury, and about 800 gold from you for their World Map, but they'll only offer a few gold for your's, there's a problem. They always seem to overprice things...
Yes. Firaxis, please make the AI accept anything I offer - even if it is completely pointless and gives it no benefit at all. It will make the game much better because the AI will always do what I want and never be able to take any of my cities. Thanx.
When you WANT something because you are proposing the deal expect to be screwed...when they come a-begging expect great things...
What would be nice is if your own advisor would clue you in. When the Aztecs offer you 8 gold for Engineering, he shouldn't say "This deal should be acceptable." just because 8 gold is their whole treasury. He should say something like "They're trying to pull a fast one on us." or "You'd have to be insane to accept such a pittance." Likewise, if a friendly AI is going to give you 2 tech for a spare luxury, he could tell you "They seem desperate. This is a bargain."
Xerxes
They shouldn't have to. If you can't figure that you are getting jipped by a piece of programming code then you deserve to get screwed.
The AI civs aren't there for your benefit, they are competing just like you, maybe they don't want to trade with you. You don't have to trade with them either.
Two oddities about the bargaining table. Sometimes you will offer up a juicy tech and the AI will only respond with 1 gold. Thats goofy.
The other is when they say no deal can be done and then accept next to nothing....the AI has no clue on the worth of strategic resources it seems.
Oil for example should be held dearly but the AI gives it up so easily.
When the AI offers you 1 gold for a tech it is probably because it is just about to make the breakthrough on the following turn. Try doing the same yourself - most times you will be able to make the trade - saving yourself one turn of research. The value of the tech seems to drop the closer you get to discovering it (as well as how many other civs have it).
Every positive value has it's price in negative terms - the genius of Einstein leads to Hiroshima.
---Pablo Picasso.
Tested yesterday : my civilization already practically razed two others (reduced to 1 city each). I am the first superpower of the world, I have infantry and artillery, a good sized army, high culture. I'm in warlord difficulty (which means the AI is supposed to be friendlier). Romans are not desperate, but they are very late in tech (still middle-age), and they are not very big either in size or in military/culture power.
What I mean is that I can crush them anytime I want, and that they could vastly benefit of a mutual protection pact, especially considering that their other neighbourgs are the #2 and 3 most powerful civs.
I propose them Mutual protection pact and right of passage. They should be begging for it. Or at least be pleased. Or at least fear to make me mad.
Instead, here is what they ask for and call a "fair deal" :
Right of Passage, Mutual protection pact.
Steam Power
Medecine
Wine
Spice
World Map
587 gold (my whole treasury)
122 gold per turn
Who would be stupid enough to accept such an absurd deal ? It would be less costly to wage a total war, destroy them and take whatever I want.
Don't feel like a smartass, dude ? This guy talk about the fact that AI should stop asking for outrageous deal, and you answer as trolling "make the AI do whatever I want". Are you trolling or just plain stupid ?Originally posted by Osweld
Yes. Firaxis, please make the AI accept anything I offer - even if it is completely pointless and gives it no benefit at all. It will make the game much better because the AI will always do what I want and never be able to take any of my cities. Thanx.
It's normal that the AI try to make a good deal. It's perhaps even acceptable for it to refuse a deal that is not slightly unfair to its advantadge. But stop the madness, if anyone give me 1 luxury, 1 tech and 150 gold and ask for 1 luxury in exchange, I would be completely dumb to refuse it. Even 1 luxury vs 1 luxury would be a good deal - I loose nothing, I gain something, considering that I have 1 luxury in excess.
If I'm a backward second-class civ and that my neighbourg, able to destroy me in no time, propose me a mutual protection pact, I'll be glad to accept it, I gain more than him.
Though the AI would be *insulted* by the deal.
Well, what it does is that it's not even worth trying to deal with the AI. Crush it and takes what you want, it'll ALWAYS be a better deal.
Science without conscience is the doom of the soul.
you call your civ a 'superpower'?Originally posted by Akka le Vil
587 gold (my whole treasury)
This makes perfect sense. I can think of 3 reasons for this.Originally posted by Akka le Vil
If I'm a backward second-class civ and that my neighbourg, able to destroy me in no time, propose me a mutual protection pact, I'll be glad to accept it, I gain more than him.
Though the AI would be *insulted* by the deal.
1)What civ were you? Certain civs are just incompatible, the romans might really not like you. Consider this: If the US suddenly offered Sadam Hussein or the Taliban a mutual protection pact would they accept? I think not.
2) If your a second-class civ surrounded by civs more powerful than you, if your Powerful MP partner goes to war you could get screwed in the ass as you just cant fight his *super* war, protected by him or not.
3)Relating to number 2, if the Romans were dragged into a war with you it would be way more expensive for them to fight it then you, so they want compensation via tech and your luxuries.
MPPs arent for friendship, they are military pacts. Try a right of passage with it, itll probably ask for less or accept.
Dude, I can't think of a better use for money then spending it- I try to never have too much extra money around (good for the proletariat economy tooyou call your civ a 'superpower'?
i reckons the way the AI has bargained, at least in the games ive played, have been pretty fair. for instance, early in the game, when all civs are pretty much in the dark, they will trade easily (normally in a simple swap).
but, if theyve explored more than you, and you offer them youre map, they'll tell you where to go if you try a straight swap. and why wouldnt they - theyre not gonna swap theyre nice Collins Atlas of the World for your crummy, written- on-the-back-of-an-envelope map of your own terriritory (which they already got 200 years ago) i think too the more powerfull you are, the more they expect from you.
also, the AI seems to ask more from the person who's trying to strike the bargain. this seems perfectly sound - when the AI comes to me with an offer i bump it up a bit. they do the same.
when a luxury trade runs out after 20 turns, they generally want a bit more coin. faira' nuff, i ask the same from the aI. the only time ive found it wanting a ludicrously high amount of wonga, its because im asking for some serious gear....
Overall I like AI, I thinks it's better than Civ 2 and one of the parts of Civ 3 that nmeeds the least work
I have walked since the dawn of time and were ever I walk, death is sure to follow. As surely as night follows day.
How the heck does the other guy KNOW what your map is worth before they've seen it ??? It would absurd to put a price on something like that and only shows the AI is blatently cheating.but, if theyve explored more than you, and you offer them youre map
Either party can get a bum deal.
Besides, that crummy piece of napkin might show you the only source of oil in the world one day ...
xane
xane i take yer point there. this is how i see it though - im head to head with rome. we swap maps quite easily to start with because its obvious to both that neither has explored much and could use the other guys map.
later on, i still havent explored much, but i know rome has, because i can see ceaser's ships sailing about all over the place. so i know theyre gonna want a hefty price for it - the more of the world they see, the more ive got to pay for their charts. at the same time, my map gets cheaper or impossible to sell, because rome already knows what i know. so i guess its maybe not that the AI knows that youre maps are only good for toilet paper, its just that it knows you cant show it anything it hasnt already seen, because it does no how much it has seen.
i think that makes sense, or am i talking out my arse again???
I always play 16 civs so I always find lots of suckers willing to make me rich
Shop around dude--If the stupid Romans dont want to deal then deal with their enemies(Then crush the little S**ts)
Die-Bin Laden-die
What's the point of trade if it's solely one side always screwing another? It seems trades of mutual advantage are far too rare. If you want to make a Civ dependent on you, make trading to mutual advantage easier.
See my upcoming thread on non-agression treaties coming up...
Venger
The interesting/frustrating thing about trading techs is that you don't know what AI civ's situation is. Perhaps they are almost finished researching the tech you are offering, or perhaps they are just not interested in that one. Of course, maybe they just hate your guts or don't have anything to give for it. If you are playing at a high difficulty level, it's a "well, what did you expect" situation.
While we can "Investigate City" we cannot do an "F1" or "F6" on them (if anyone knows different, please let me know)!
Of course, if they really like you (long-term ally) and they have the resources, they might give you an outrageously great price for a good tech.
When the AI comes to me, I never take the first offer. I always go for another proposal.
Often they'll offer to trade world maps if I throw in a tech. I counter by asking them what they would give me just for the tech. Sometimes they come back and offer a tech swap plus cash from them and sometimes they just offer their map. If they offer income, I try and increase it.
One game I'm in, its 1600, I'm leading in tech and I have a net income of 200 gold/turn - all from other civs. My own generated gold is going to maintenence and science, mostly science. (Huge map, 16 civs, warlord)
When I go to the AI, I find I have a lot less room to manuver, as it should be. But I still don't take the first offer most of the time.
Rule 37: "There is no 'overkill'. There is only 'open fire' and 'I need to reload'."
http://www.schlockmercenary.com/ 23 Feb 2004
Perhaps I did not make myself plain.
The AI gives up way too much at the bargaining table.
Sure, they will ask too much sometimes, but the AI can not recognize when it really has you over a barrel.
I am so disgusted that I got oil so cheaply that I quit the game.
Oh, I did go back and replayed the turn and found I could get oil simply by demanding it.
Thats even more pathetic. I think that Soren needs to work on this one.
Strategic resources should be help much more dear by the AI. The general rule should be that you HAVE to fight to get them.
Civ3 is such a lame, peacenik game. There should be no chance to win without massive warfare.
Out of curiosity, I once offered a civ 6 gold in return for 6 gold....they refused as if I was trying to cheat them or something (don't remember the exact response). If I worked for Firaxis, such deals would have a unique and probably humorous response like: "Shouldn't you be looking at the games's nifty unit graphics now?"
...Otherwise, I agree with those who say that the AI has some strange expectations at the bargaining table. Also, I haven't seen them do as much "could I please have some coal?" as I've done. They seem perfectly content to fight against tanks with archers if they don't have the resources...and I haven't noticed any AI invasions that seemed resource-related, although it might happen sometime.
jimmytrick, what were the conditions when you got oil so easily? relative power, political relations...that sort of thing. If getting oil is really as easy as you say it is (I've only played a few games and only made it to Refining once or twice without oil in my borders...) then I agree there's a serious problem.
One interesting thing happend in may game.
Only AI superpower, wich was supplied by me with iron for 30 gold per turn, offered mr 98 gold per turn plus saltpeter, when I wanted to cancel our agreement.
I suppose it is becaouse no one else had excess Irons, and he badly needed Iron for Railroads.
Talking about generous AI
ya, it worked so well for the Mongols, Germans, Russians, Romans, Japs...Originally posted by jimmytrick
Civ3 is such a lame, peacenik game. There should be no chance to win without massive warfare.
In other words, massive warfare may be fun for you, but what about the other people who play the game? I personally turn off all options but conquest, but I still dont want a wargame vieled as a empire-building game...
"Nuke em all, let god sort it out!"
Concerning the lame, peacenik game accusation: I forget where I read this but it went something like: "all those cultural improvements are only worth the army defending them."
In the 2 games I've tried for a one-city cultural victory, I lost one because of the UN end-game, and another to a tidal wave of enemy units from my culturally inferior neighbor. I haven't played, let alone won (in any way), a game that didn't include massive warfare.
I've also noticed a vicious tendency of AI civs to gang up on weaklings. In my current game, after a losing a few cities to the Greeks, the Romans found literally everyone else except me (a peacenik democracy, yes) looking for piece of them.
I haven't been in any nuclear exchanges yet...anyone know how the AI behaves here?
Trading should be better
Don't get me wrong, the A.I. in this game is far better than that in Civ2 or SMAc in many things, but sometimes in can be VERY STUPID. How do we, human gamers, decide what our interests are? Lets say you are small and have a realtively weak army but think that in the future things will improve-now your superpower neighbor, who can squash you aside like an insect comes demanding certain things. Do you say no, or yes? I know some will let their pride rule and be crushed in the process,but those that care for realpolitik will say yes for the moment and bide their time. The A.I. seems to me to be poor at both judging relative power vs. gamer and biding its time for later strikes (which is why the Vassal state strategy works so well). It acts too proud in present and ignorant of possible future disadvantages it might get into. These may be difficult things to encode into an A.I., i don't know, but I can still dream...
If you don't like reality, change it! me
"Oh no! I am bested!" Drake :(
"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
We probably don't have the same game. Or you're even more probably just trolling."The AI gives up way too much at the bargaining table. "
Perhaps a joke but... Nah, I doubt it is."Strategic resources should be help much more dear by the AI. The general rule should be that you HAVE to fight to get them."
"Civ3 is such a lame, peacenik game. There should be no chance to win without massive warfare."
Listen, dude : increase your medication, spend one hour a day hitting a punching-ball, and go back play Warcraft. You won't be disturbed by too much peaceniks.
I suppose here that it's just some humouryou call your civ a 'superpower'?
Just in case, I had not that much gold because I actually SPEND it when I have. don't see the point accumulating it except to have the Wall Street money.
HugoHillbilly, have you really see WHAT he asked me to trade ?
2 techs, my maps, 122 golds a turn, 587 gold and two luxuries for a pact that is MORE profitable for him than for me. The little powers are usually more looking for alliance than the big ones.
Well, and if you want another example...
Few times later, a world war started (me and the German against the rest of the world). I punched through Romans easily (tanks vs musketmen), took two of their cities, and, just for fun, want to see what they would give me if I would allow them a peace treaty.
In fact, Caesar, who has my troops right at the door of his capitol (not a picture, I was actually bombing it), and had already lost two cities, asked ME to give him TWELVE workers so he would grant me peace.
But I suppose someone will again give me a "logical" answer as why he would do that. Of course.
Science without conscience is the doom of the soul.
SuperPowers Should Pay More
Agreed! The AI Civs are not playing to simply "survive", they are playing to win.The AI civs aren't there for your benefit, they are competing just like you, maybe they don't want to trade with you. You don't have to trade with them either.
Exactly!When the AI offers you 1 gold for a tech it is probably because it is just about to make the breakthrough on the following turn.
Unless you've become the leading superpower by culture/peace (rare) & not war in the past... it would be SUICIDE for the Romans to agree to a MPP with you. That would essentially make them your temporary buffer/shield if/when you declare war on the other Superpowers. You need to think about how MPP is possible to work rather than just the word "protection".I propose them Mutual protection pact and right of passage. They should be begging for it. Or at least be pleased. Or at least fear to make me mad.
Instead
Exactly!MPPs arent for friendship, they are military pacts.
As I've explained in another thread a 1-1 luxury trade to a small weaker Civ IS an insult when offered from a large superpower...But stop the madness, if anyone give me 1 luxury, 1 tech and 150 gold and ask for 1 luxury in exchange, I would be completely dumb to refuse it. Even 1 luxury vs 1 luxury would be a good deal - I loose nothing, I gain something, considering that I have 1 luxury in excess.
1st, a civ with 10 cities benefits FAR less from a 1-1 luxury trade than a civ with 40 cities does. Thus the smaller civ is right to ask for a better deal than a 1-1 luxury trade.
2nd, if a civ is technologically further behind than you are a 1-1 luxury trade will again help you out more than them. 1 more extra happy citizen often leads to better production... this allows you to build 1 more tank... but him only 1 more rifleman.
3rd, additional luxuries are not as important to small cities as they are to large cities. Superpowers typically have the multiple large cities. The weak Civs are the ones with still size12 towns! Thus, again luxuries help the superpowers out FAR MORE than the weak Civs.
4th, the weaker Civs are smart to ask for more from the larger Civs... the last thing they should want to do is make the Superpowers even more powerful. Again they should be playing to win, not simply "survive".
How the heck does the other guy KNOW what your map is worth before they've seen it ???In addition, the histograph shows which Civs are the most powerful. Land ownership is a HUGE factor in determining power. Even tho I did not know how much exploring or land ownership the Aztecs had in my 1st game, I knew it was one of the best since they were at the top in score.i still havent explored much, but i know rome has, because i can see ceaser's ships sailing about all over the place. so i know theyre gonna want a hefty price for it - the more of the world they see, the more ive got to pay for their charts. at the same time, my map gets cheaper or impossible to sell, because rome already knows what i know.
Agreed! Well said.I always play 16 civs so I always find lots of suckers willing to make me rich. Shop around dude
As Soren stated once the most *some* AI Civs will ask for is a +10% to what is considered an equal trade. A 1luxury for 1luxury is not an equal trade when 1 Civ is a large high tech superpower & the other is the Flintstones.What's the point of trade if it's solely one side always screwing another?
Exactly! Agreed.When I go to the AI, I find I have a lot less room to manuver, as it should be.
Not enough information to comment on. It ALL depends on the situation, both your Civ's history, reputations, military strengths, trade history, # of cities, etc. Someone mentioned in another thread they found it impossible to get coal... that clearly shows 2 VERY different situations & circumstances.The AI gives up way too much at the bargaining table. Sure, they will ask too much sometimes, but the AI can not recognize when it really has you over a barrel. I am so disgusted that I got oil so cheaply that I quit the game. Strategic resources should be help much more dear by the AI.
Perfect example. Iron was far more crucial to that AI superpower & it could not find/risk going elsewhere. Without iron key buildings & military cannot be built for that AI superpower to retain it's lead & feel secure.Only AI superpower, wich was supplied by me with iron for 30 gold per turn, offered mr 98 gold per turn plus saltpeter, when I wanted to cancel our agreement.
I suppose it is becaouse no one else had excess Irons, and he badly needed Iron for Railroads. Talking about generous AI
AI Civs shouldn't be playing to simply survive, but to win. A superpower forcing their demands on weaker civs is no way that weaker civ is going to win. So if we were in a multiplayer game & my midevil knights had oil while your ModernAge society came over & "demanded" my oil... I say no unless you agree to my terms. You might very well kill me... and although you might not do the same, I would rather "die on my feet than live on my knees."How do we, human gamers, decide what our interests are? Lets say you are small and have a realtively weak army but think that in the future things will improve-now your superpower neighbor, who can squash you aside like an insect comes demanding certain things. Do you say no, or yes?
I do agree too. Except when they commit suicide to "win". You should think about winning only when you have a chance of surviving. It's pretty hard to win if you're dead, he ?Originally posted by Pyrodrew
Agreed! The AI Civs are not playing to simply "survive", they are playing to win.
I do agree that Roman accepting the MPP would have made them my buffer/shield, as I was about to be at war with their neighbours. Though, they had the choice of be my buffer/shield or be the battleground for my tanks. If I was at their place, I would have chosen to side with the strongest.Unless you've become the leading superpower by culture/peace (rare) & not war in the past... it would be SUICIDE for the Romans to agree to a MPP with you. That would essentially make them your temporary buffer/shield if/when you declare war on the other Superpowers. You need to think about how MPP is possible to work rather than just the word "protection".
I do agree with that.As I've explained in another thread a 1-1 luxury trade to a small weaker Civ IS an insult when offered from a large superpower...
1st, a civ with 10 cities benefits FAR less from a 1-1 luxury trade than a civ with 40 cities does. Thus the smaller civ is right to ask for a better deal than a 1-1 luxury trade.
2nd, if a civ is technologically further behind than you are a 1-1 luxury trade will again help you out more than them. 1 more extra happy citizen often leads to better production... this allows you to build 1 more tank... but him only 1 more rifleman.
3rd, additional luxuries are not as important to small cities as they are to large cities. Superpowers typically have the multiple large cities. The weak Civs are the ones with still size12 towns! Thus, again luxuries help the superpowers out FAR MORE than the weak Civs.
A 1luxury for 1luxury is not an equal trade when 1 Civ is a large high tech superpower & the other is the Flintstones.
Here it leads to another dilemna : should the barter be based on the relative value or the absolute value ? I mean, if I've 1000 gold, +150 each turn and that I'm trading with a civ that has 200 gold, +25 each turn, and I ask 10 gold in exchange of 10 gold : should the barter be considered fair as I give as much as I take (10 gold for 10 gold) ? Or should the barter be considered unfair as I give proportionnaly less than I ask (1 % of my gold/6,5 % of my income against 5 % of their gold/40 % of their income).
Here is a good thing to think about.
The best way to have a greater chance to win AND to make the superpower not more powerful is to don't start a war with it and have it swallow your weaker civ.4th, the weaker Civs are smart to ask for more from the larger Civs... the last thing they should want to do is make the Superpowers even more powerful. Again they should be playing to win, not simply "survive".
The stupid thing that always bothered me in all the Civ's diplomacy was that the weaker civ were supposed to be more agressive against the more powerful ones, and that the more powerful were supposed to be generous toward the weaker ones.
In fact it's reality it's exactly the opposite, and the more powerful you are, the more you can afford to bully others (until the balance of power change, but that's another thing).
The weaker I am compared to my neighbour, the more I'll shut up.
When I go to the AI, I find I have a lot less room to manuver, as it should be.That's right. As the requester, I should have to give more than I'll receive.As Soren stated once the most *some* AI Civs will ask for is a +10% to what is considered an equal trade.
I agree too it's acceptable that some civ ask for a little more than they'll give.
But +10 % or even +25/50 % is one thing. The INSANE request the AI always ask is another. It's not +10 % that they try to extort, it's often more than three times what it's worth.
And while I accept that they'll ask for more, there is times when they should ask for LESS. And not ONLY when they are reduced to ashes and about to die.
"AI Civs shouldn't be playing to simply survive, but to win. A superpower forcing their demands on weaker civs is no way that weaker civ is going to win."
A superpower crushing the weaker under its foot is an even more unlikely way that the weaker civ is going to win.
MP is completely different. We'll fight people with actual real brains (unless we got to play againt Bush Jr) that will have reasonnable ways to think. We'll be able to barter, to haggle over, and to explain why or why not, to actually really be able to threaten"So if we were in a multiplayer game & my midevil knights had oil while your ModernAge society came over & "demanded" my oil... I say no unless you agree to my terms. You might very well kill me... and although you might not do the same, I would rather "die on my feet than live on my knees."
Last edited by Akka; November 25, 2001 at 10:11.
Science without conscience is the doom of the soul.
If you've learned oil & I'm still learning Gunpowder I must take bigger risks to try to win which include risking my entire civilization. Either I give you oil for saltpeter (unfair trade for a weaker smaller civ) & you win via spaceship victory, UN, culture, or conquest. Or I withhold my oil & ask for a very steep price for the oil. If you accept my price I might be back in the game. If you decline & attack me... well I lost anyways at that point. Do you really think saltpeter will help a smaller weaker civ win when the Superpowers are discovering oil?Originally posted by Akka le Vil
I do agree too. Except when they commit suicide to "win". You should think about winning only when you have a chance of surviving. It's pretty hard to win if you're dead, he ?
You might prefer to have 2 Superpowers beating you up instead of 1... not me.I do agree that Roman accepting the MPP would have made them my buffer/shield, as I was about to be at war with their neighbours. Though, they had the choice of be my buffer/shield or be the battleground for my tanks. If I was at their place, I would have chosen to side with the strongest.
In reality the world is NOT ending in 2050 with God deciding 1 Civilization as the winner & the rest losers. If it was reality would be VERY different. The weaker civilizations are not the ones starting the wars... you are declaring war on them simply because they won't trade with you.The best way to have a greater chance to win AND to make the superpower not more powerful is to don't start a war with it and have it swallow your weaker civ.
The stupid thing that always bothered me in all the Civ's diplomacy was that the weaker civ were supposed to be more agressive against the more powerful ones, and that the more powerful were supposed to be generous toward the weaker ones.
In fact it's reality it's exactly the opposite, and the more powerful you are, the more you can afford to bully others (until the balance of power change, but that's another thing).
The weaker I am compared to my neighbour, the more I'll shut up.
Again see my earlier post explaining why what something is worth to you is different compared to what something is worth to a smaller & weaker Civ. 1 luxury for 1 luxury is not a fair trade.That's right. As the requester, I should have to give more than I'll receive. I agree too it's acceptable that some civ ask for a little more than they'll give.
But +10 % or even +25/50 % is one thing. The INSANE request the AI always ask is another. It's not +10 % that they try to extort, it's often more than three times what it's worth.
A weaker Civ giving in to the demands of the superpowers has NO CHANCE of winning... with that logic the superpowers would always get what they want increasing their lead among the others even more. No weaker smaller civ should be playing for 5th place. Thus, asking a high price to significantly help it out is logical. If you're going to lose you might as well lose fighting on your feet rather than lose living on your knees.A superpower crushing the weaker under its foot is an even more unlikely way that the weaker civ is going to win.
I agree. Unfortunately, I have a suspicion that many human players will drop out if they find they are in 11th place mid-game... so most of those threats will still be against the AI. But if I was in 11th place & discovered I was the only one with oil in my territory... I would not give it to the human superpowers for a mere "fair" or +1000 gold price... because I would want to win... or die. The AI should act no different & it doesn't.MP is completely different. We'll fight people with actual real brains (unless we got to play againt Bush Jr) that will have reasonnable ways to think. We'll be able to barter, to haggle over, and to explain why or why not, to actually really be able to threaten
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