oedo´s unfinished

[oedo]

Scouse Gits thread A is for Alphabet inspired me to start a series of tests. I´d like to find out what techs are available for chooce and what pattern is there behind. for this reason I created a map and played it with different civs starting at exactly the same position. whatever civ I played I made exactly the same turns. each time I made a research I recorded the table of available techs to choose.

I first made these tests with three different civs: the Romans, the Persians and the Mongols. to speed things upI prepared a map with many trade bonus icons and choosed 2x2x settings, King. Meanwhile I veryfied on deity and 1x1x settings. also i put the AI civs on a far crappy island in order to prevent them from disturbing my circles.
one thing always remained the same: the tech path I was choosing. it is Horsebackriding -> Ceremonial Burial -> Alphabet ->Law Code -> Monarchy -> Writing. whatever settings I choosed the results were always the same.

so here´s what I recorded at 2x2x king:
[This message has been edited by oedo (edited December 01, 2000).]

[oedo]

actually I wanted to post a nice looking table here, but it doesn´t seem to work .

anyway, I was playing with the Romans, the Persians and the Mongols and always got the same tech-tables. here they are:

3950:
Alphabet
BronzeCeremonial Burial
Horsebackriding
Masonary
Pottery
Warrior Code

3850:
Alphabet
Ceremonial Burial
Wheel

3650:
Alphabet
Bronze
Masonary
Mysicism
Polytheism
Pottery
Warrior Code

3500:
Bronze
Law Code
Masonary
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code
Wheel

3350:
Bronze
Map Making
Monarchy
Polytheism
Wheel
Writing

3150:
Bronze
Map Making
Masonary
Mysticism
Polytheism
Pottery
Warrior Code
Writing

2950:
Bronze
Masonary
Mysticism
Pottery
Warrior Code
Wheel

<font size=1 face=Arial color=444444>[This message has been edited by oedo (edited December 01, 2000).]</font>
[This message has been edited by oedo (edited December 01, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

Ming - please turn HTML on!

[oedo]

unfortunately I couldn´t post the table here. it didn´t work properly. but you can watch it here anyway, it clearly shows the techs allowed for choosing aren´t random at all. they also aren´t influenced by the civ you´re playing. but they´re determined in a probably very complicated way. I hope I will find a formula for this one sonn. as long as I don´t I´ll just have to keep on posting tables with different tech trees. your help is appreciated.
[This message has been edited by oedo (edited December 01, 2000).]

[Bird]

Oedo, can you use the same map and start the same civs in a different location to see whether that affects the choices. Perhaps closer or further from the ai, or closer or further from an ocean.

[oedo]

Bird, this one just describes how I proceeded in my series of tests. in the meantime I even was playing on different maps with different settings. I only avoided to grab huts in order to follow the same tech tree each time. I always got the same results: the tables I posted above.

[Ribannah]

quote: Originally posted by oedo on 12-01-2000 10:18 AM ... the techs allowed for choosing aren´t random at all. they also aren´t influenced by the civ you´re playing. but they´re determined in a probably very complicated way.

In my experience the available research is determined by two factors only:

[1] The technology you already have
[2] The moment you discovered the key techs Warrior Code and Navigation. If you get one of these early, the options will be different.

Most likely there is not a formula but a table / several tables.


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If you have no feet, don't walk on fire

[Bird]

Oedo: So your conclusion is that if a civ starts with certain techs and chooses a certain research path, the techs available for the next advance will always be the same, regardless of civ or location. Right?

That's good for MP, since everyone will have the same opportunity (assuming no one has starting techs). The choices will diverge as huts are uncovered and people select different advances along the way.
[This message has been edited by Bird (edited December 01, 2000).]

[suas333]

Wow Richard i think you are absolutely right. I have always blindly researched ceremonial before alphabet in order to get the horseback-ceremonial-alphabet--code of laws-monarchy tech path, but i never realized why everyone must do this. Researching alpha before ceremonial would put 3 social techs in a row, which cannot be researched! This i guess is to prevent too much development and advancement in one area of civilization compared to others. We wouldn't want a civilization to have all techs leading up to democracy and corporations, but still be fighting with warriors!

Also, oedo, I believe that starting techs don't slow down the tech rate as other techs do. Thats why its a big host advantage to get them in multiplayer. If a civ starts with say 2 technologies, they still only need 10 science beakons to get the first researched tech etc.
Techs gained from huts, on the other-hand, do seem to slow down research rates, as do normal researched technologies.


Hope this helps, good luck oedo.

[oedo]

this is exactly what I found out so far; nothing more and nothig less.
There are still a lot of things I want to find out, for example

- is there difference between regular researched techs in comparison to starting techs/hut techs?

- what´s up with the warrior code/navigation thing? (very interesting aspect)

- certain questions which will most probably arise during my further tests

I will add more research table the coming days.

BTW, I posted my dream-tech-tree, which unfortunately doesn´t work, into SG´s Alphabet thread. This one here works: Alphabet->Map Making->Pottery->Seafaring.

....to be continued

[Richard Bruns]

I often find that available tech depends on category (Military, Economic, Social, Academic, Applied). It seems that after you research two techs in a row of a particular category all choices for that category disappear, forcing you to choose a different category.

FE I can never seem to reserarch Ceremonial Curial, then Code of Laws, then Monarchy. After researching the first two in a row, all social techs are unavailable.

But that's from memory and not testing. I'm sure there are exceptions, but it seems to be a general rule. It would explain why you can't do Map Making, Pottery, Seafaring; they are all economic techs.
[This message has been edited by Richard Bruns (edited December 01, 2000).]

[oedo]

Heureka! I´ve found it

the availability of techs follows two rules working in combination to each other:

1. the first rule is an xxo pattern. this means, as far as you have the prerequisites, a tech is available, then available, then not available...then availble, then abailable, then not available etc...
each tech starts on a different position of this pattern. they can be xxo, xox or oxx. in order to define this position each tech will get a value. the value can be 0 (xxo), 1(xox) or 2(oxx)

I´m not a programmer, but the algorithm should about look like this:

if (1+n+v-s)/3 = INT then tech is not available

n is the number of techs you have found by then.
v is the value that describes the position in the pattern. as far as I´ve found out them I prepared a table showing the tech-values.
s is the number of starting techs.

2. for understanding the second rule take a look at the rules.txt. you can see that all techs are listed in alphabetical order there. the highest ranked tech is Advanced Flight, followed by Alphabet, then Amphibious Warfare etc.
the highest ranked available tech in the rules.txt acts as a joker tech. it is always available and doesn´t follow the xxo pattern. since Advanced Flight isn´t available in the beginning, Alphabet will be the first joker tech. when you discover Alphabet, another tech will become a joker tech (for example Bronze).
When you have the prerequisites for a tech which is ranked higher in the rules.txt than the current joker tech, the new tech will take its place. the former joker tech will follow the xxo pattern as described above. (example: Bronze is joker tech, after detecting Mysticism and Mathmatics Astronomy will become available as new joker tech. from now on Bronze will follow the usual xxo pattern).

I prepared a table with an example path showing the available and the missing techs for choose. the numbers in the brackets describe the values of the techs. I think when you take a look at it you will understand the rule.

techs from huts or from other civs (by stealing, trading or GL) behave like regulary discovered techs.
(example: after detecting alpha and cer. burial you notice that you can´t choose law code from the table. you decide for pottery for whatever reason. in the same turn you find writing under a hut, later you conquer a Mongolian city getting Warrior Code. if you don´t get any other tech before discovering Pottery you won´t be able to choose Law Code again.)
starting techs, however, behave like never researched techs. that´s why they play into the formula above.

well, this is the rule as far as I was able to describe it. now see what you can do with it

oedo
[This message has been edited by oedo (edited December 04, 2000).]

[Scouse Gits]

Awesome
It will take a while to completely digest, but the key seems to be -
If you can't research a particular tech, avoid gaining 3n-1 techs (2, 5, 8 etc) by other means or else you won't be able to research your key tech next time either!
Please correct me if I have this wrong ...

Awsome!!

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Scouse Git[1]

"CARTAGO DELENDA EST" - Cato the Censor
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited December 06, 2000).]

[Daddy-O]

I think what this, the revolution pattern, and 'A is for Alphabet' shows is that with a grant and focused mental energy, the people of this forum could discover cold fusion, or a free energy source.

If you can't tell, that is a compliment. I have always wondered why Techs disappear and appear when they do. Thanks.

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'I want to be hand counted and checked for dimples.'

[Richard Bruns]

Albert B, that can't really be the case. There are 3 tech numbers and 5 types of techs. I instantly looked for some pattern like that in oedo's list, but couldn't find one. There seems to be no overall pattern, except for certain techs that are close together like the Monarchy fast track that is stopped by the numbers.