Fair is fair . . . Georgia Democrats propose an anti-vasectomy bill

[kentonio]

In this case every selfish person will decide to kill the other person. Because that is better for them. We agree that it is unethical.

Yet we don't agree that abortion is generally unethical.

I am not saying that abortion is unethical in the situation where only one gets to live.

JM

So we've already agreed that murder is fine as long as the circumstances in which that murder take place are morally comfortable to us. So now we're down to a highly subjective definition of which murders we decide to classify as 'selfish' or not.

Ok, lets try and narrow it down further..

14 year old girl with a hugely promising future ahead of her screws another 14 year old and gets pregnant. Despite society determining that children do not have the capacity to make adult decisions do we force that child to carry another child to term, ruining her own education and future in the process because of her 'selfish' decisions?

[MrFun]

Should a woman who is pregnant with an embryo be allowed to drive in car pool lanes?
Should she be able to claim a child tax credit/break if she is pregnant with an embryo?
Should an impoverished woman, who has no children already, be able to claim food stamps for one child (the embryo)?

[MrFun]

So we've already agreed that murder is fine as long as the circumstances in which that murder take place are morally comfortable to us. So now we're down to a highly subjective definition of which murders we decide to classify as 'selfish' or not.

Ok, lets try and narrow it down further..

14 year old girl with a hugely promising future ahead of her screws another 14 year old and gets pregnant. Despite society determining that children do not have the capacity to make adult decisions do we force that child to carry another child to term, ruining her own education and future in the process because of her 'selfish' decisions?

She should be allowed to have the choice of getting an abortion.

[Jon Miller]

So we've already agreed that murder is fine as long as the circumstances in which that murder take place are morally comfortable to us. So now we're down to a highly subjective definition of which murders we decide to classify as 'selfish' or not.

Ok, lets try and narrow it down further..

14 year old girl with a hugely promising future ahead of her screws another 14 year old and gets pregnant. Despite society determining that children do not have the capacity to make adult decisions do we force that child to carry another child to term, ruining her own education and future in the process because of her 'selfish' decisions?

I know plenty of girls who have a future and education after having a child in their teens.

I don't know of anyone who had a future of any type after being aborted.

Also, I see a difference between killing and murder.

JM

[Jon Miller]

I would just like to see Republicans who are genuinely in favor of a less intrusive government.

You would like Republicans to be OK with someone murdering you because you are gay? And the government not doing anything?

That would be less intrusive.

Except in your life.

JM

[kentonio]

I know plenty of girls who have a future and education after having a child in their teens.

There are vast numbers of examples of girls who were unable to complete their educations and ended up spending their entire lives scraping though with dead end jobs to try and support a child they were not ready for and can barely support. In case you haven't got the point I'm making yet, it's that the good examples are close to worthless when it comes to legislation. A kind society legislates based on the worst case scenarios and the examples where that legislation could end up ruining lives.

You're a reasonable guy and I don't like talking down to you, but seriously man this is not a black and white issue where you get to think happy thoughts about lovely babies. This is a horribly complex issue which involves the reproductive rights of half the worlds population and a whole host of incredibly personal and traumatic issues that cannot simple be boiled down to 'murdering babies is bad m'kay'.

[Jon Miller]

It certainly would make the lives better of the poor if they could abort their babies at 10 years of age. I mean, those babies cost a lot of money and stop education/etc opportunities!

"murdering babies is bad m'kay"

Once more, I don't think we should put the line at conception. I don't think there is scientific evidence for this. I do think there is scientific evidence for when brain waves start at the end of the first trimester. Based on your reasoning there is no reason not to abort ~10 yearolds.

JM

[kentonio]

It certainly would make the lives better of the poor if they could abort their babies at 10 years of age. I mean, those babies cost a lot of money and stop education/etc opportunities!

"murdering babies is bad m'kay"

Once more, I don't think we should put the line at conception. I don't think there is scientific evidence for this. I do think there is scientific evidence for when brain waves start at the end of the first trimester. Based on your reasoning there is no reason not to abort ~10 yearolds.

JM

Actually I've made no mention of when I think any limits based on time or development should be other than saying I have sympathy for late term pro-life opinions. Personally I'd prefer to rely on scientists who actually know the field to inform us about what stage of development those 'brain waves' actually constitute any sentient thought. As I said, it's not a black/white issue.

[Jon Miller]

It is a black and white issue.

I can't say 'it is ok to kill someone when they are sleeping' or 'it is OK to kill children before 18' or 'it is OK to kill an elderly person' or even 'it is OK to kill someone in a comma' or 'it is OK to kill a disabled person'.

The only reason why this is claimed to not be a black and white issue is because it is in the economic interests of many people (women) to remove clarity and to continue to terrorize and murder their children.

JM

[kentonio]

It is a black and white issue.

I can't say 'it is ok to kill someone when they are sleeping' or 'it is OK to kill children before 18' or 'it is OK to kill an elderly person' or even 'it is OK to kill someone in a comma' or 'it is OK to kill a disabled person'.

The only reason why this is claimed to not be a black and white issue is because it is in the economic interests of many people (women) to remove clarity and to continue to terrorize and murder their children.

JM

Wow, for a Christian you certainly do seem capable of a quite nasty level of cruelty. By painting women who face this decision as some selfish cash junkies who murder babies, you help add to the trauma they already go through and help raise the number of women who end up suicidal.

[Jon Miller]

I am just being honest.

Sometimes the truth is terrible.

It is true for some things I have done myself. I am have done bad things too.

White washing doesn't help anything. It is the same as going to the Germans "Oh, you guys didn't know that Jews were humans and didn't deserve to be murdered. I am so sorry, everything will be OK."

It takes away guilt from those who deserve guilt. It takes away any push to change. It removes any opportunity for improvement.

Those who don't speak up share in the responsibility with those who do the murder.

JM
(I haven't always spoken up. I share responsibility.)

[Jon Miller]

Millions of babies have already been murdered just for their sex.

Millions of babies get murdered because african-americans are lied to, and don't realize that they are killing their own children to pay for their lifestyle.

If genetic testing comes, how many millions would be murdered due to having a gene which is correlated with homosexuality?

Many of the pro-abortion people are pro-abortion because they want to believe the lies that others tell them. Lies like the ones found in this thread. If we stop with the lies, I think that many people who want an abortion now would not one one.

JM

[kentonio]

I am just being honest.

Sometimes the truth is terrible.

It is true for some things I have done myself. I am have done bad things too.

White washing doesn't help anything. It is the same as going to the Germans "Oh, you guys didn't know that Jews were humans and didn't deserve to be murdered. I am so sorry, everything will be OK."

No it absolutely is not, and you're comparison is not only insulting to the millions of women who undergo abortions each year, but also pretty disgusting.

It takes away guilt from those who deserve guilt.

Deserve guilt? So you're holding yourself up as equal to god now then? I don't remember god mentioning abortion in the bible. Do you just get to make up yourself what classifies murder? Which doesn't apparently include war or euthanasia?

Those who don't speak up share in the responsibility with those who do the murder.

(I haven't always spoken up. I share responsibility.)

How about the first woman who's pushed to kill herself based on your need to 'speak up'. Is that a justified murder you'll have commited?

[kentonio]

Millions of babies get murdered because african-americans are lied to, and don't realize that they are killing their own children to pay for their lifestyle.

Oh..my..god..

[Jon Miller]

How many murders do I take part in when I don't speak up.

Like the people who didn't speak up for the blacks 50 years ago.

Or the people who didn't speak up for the Jews 80 years ago.

It is a problem if someone kills themselves over guilt of what they have done. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't speak up.

When they came for the Jews, I was not a Jew
When they came for the blacks, I was not black
When they came for the babies, I was not a baby

I don't even care if they never come for me. It is still wrong. Evil. One of the greatest crimes humanity has ever done, and is still doing.

JM

[Jon Miller]

Oh..my..god..

Yes.

Isn't it a nightmare?

I have often attending african-american churches. They praise the abortion in some of them.

JM

[kentonio]

How many murders do I take part in when I don't speak up.

Like the people who didn't speak up for the blacks 50 years ago.

Or the people who didn't speak up for the Jews 80 years ago.

It is a problem if someone kills themselves over guilt of what they have done. But that doesn't mean I shouldn't speak up.

When they came for the Jews, I was not a Jew
When they came for the blacks, I was not black
When they came for the babies, I was not a baby

I don't even care if they never come for me. It is still wrong. Evil. One of the greatest crimes humanity has ever done, and is still doing.

JM

Don't try and put yourself on some pedestal as if you have anything in common with those people, your position is one that pisses all over the rights of women and which already looks horrendously outdated in the west outside of the US.

Yes.

Isn't it a nightmare?

That someone I thought was intelligent and reasonable would come out with some racist **** like that? I'd call it very disappointing personally.

[Elok]

Should a woman who is pregnant with an embryo be allowed to drive in car pool lanes?
Should she be able to claim a child tax credit/break if she is pregnant with an embryo?
Should an impoverished woman, who has no children already, be able to claim food stamps for one child (the embryo)?

Well, the embryo can't drive on its own and does not currently expend significant extra resources such as food, so the tiniest bit of thought would reveal the answer: "no." Still, that's some nice snark.

[Jon Miller]

Where do women get the right to murder? How si that a woman's right?

If we decide that it is a woman's right, than it is the most horrible right since white men had the right to own another man based on the color of his skin.

How is it racist?

I love african-american people, I attend african-american churches when I am in the US.

They have been completely lied to about abortion, and support abortion completely.

"In the United States, the abortion rate for black women is almost five times that for white women."

This is even true corrected for income levels.

It is no different than asians aborting girls due to them being 'undesirables'.

For example: http://www.theroot.com/views/why-bla...n-rate-so-high

JM

[kentonio]

Where do women get the right to murder? How si that a woman's right?

If we decide that it is a woman's right, than it is the most horrible right since white men had the right to own another man based on the color of his skin.

Forcing a woman to carry a child to term forces unwanted control over her body for 9 month including the often highly painful physical damage that can ensue, including the risk of death. By telling a woman she has to carry a child to term, you are basically forcing her into a grotesque form of unwanted physical slavery. Maybe the idea of going back to the times when women were basically cattle who dropped child after child until their bodies gave out is appealing to you, but polling constantly shows that women disagree.

How is it racist?

I love african-american people, I attend african-american churches when I am in the US.

They have been completely lied to about abortion, and support abortion completely.

"In the United States, the abortion rate for black women is almost five times that for white women."

This is even true corrected for income levels.

Actually below the poverty line it's higher for Hispanic women.

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/gpr/11/3/gpr110302.html

It is no different than asians aborting girls due to them being 'undesirables'.

This is why you're being a racist. You're refering to a ****ed up cultural influence in Asia and extending that out to explain a difference in statistics for black women, as if black americans have some bizarre cultural tendancy towards abortion that is missing in good white folks.

From the link I posted above..

The disparities in unintended pregnancy rates result mainly from similar disparities in access to and effective use of contraceptives. As of 2002, 15% of black women at risk of unintended pregnancy (i.e., those who are sexually active, fertile and not wanting to be pregnant) were not practicing contraception, compared with 12% and 9% of their Hispanic and white counterparts, respectively. These figures—and the disparities among them—are significant given that, nationally, half of all unintended pregnancies result from the small proportion of women who are at risk but not using contraceptives.

Now lets just think a second, who are the groups in America who are most anti-contraception and increasingly attempt to remove the ability of low income women to access contraception?

Seriously stop trying to force women to return to their former slave like roles, they're not going to take it.

[Jon Miller]

Forcing a woman to carry a child to term forces unwanted control over her body for 9 month including the often highly painful physical damage that can ensue, including the risk of death. By telling a woman she has to carry a child to term, you are basically forcing her into a grotesque form of unwanted physical slavery. Maybe the idea of going back to the times when women were basically cattle who dropped child after child until their bodies gave out is appealing to you, but polling constantly shows that women disagree.

Why are you trying to demonize me?

I guess if you demonize your opponents, than you can feel good about supporting mass murder of the innocent.

If women don't want to have children, they can get this taken care of. If they get pregnant, I am even OK with with them aborting early in the first trimester! I am not unreasonable here.

But yes, they might have to spend a few months and bear a child.

Just like someone who gets drunk and runs over someone might have to work for a few years to pay that persons medical bills/etc.

JM

[Dr Strangelove]

Ultrasounds are used to make an accurate assessment of the age of the fetus, which if the pregnancy is to be terminated would determine tha method to be used.

[Jon Miller]

This is why you're being a racist. You're refering to a ****ed up cultural influence in Asia and extending that out to explain a difference in statistics for black women, as if black americans have some bizarre cultural tendancy towards abortion that is missing in good white folks.

I know about poor hispanics. I said white women. Maybe I should have posted all the statistics with clarifications, and included all minority groups. My statement is still correct.

And I am not being racist. I explicitly did not say that african-americans have a bizarre cultural tendency towards abortion.

I said that they are lied to.

Being lied to does not mean it is OK.

Actually, I think they are lied to by 'good white folks' along with selfish african-americans. After all, who is most likely to think that more black children are undesirables?

JM

[Dinner]

By the way, it might not be necessary but I'd like to call additional attention to the incredible wrongness streak Oerdin has had in this thread, about the contents of the bill, whether it has even passed the legislature, whether the governor intended to sign, and then his whole conspiracy theory about Republicans wanting nothing more than to own women's bodies. He's really outdone himself.

1) He publicly said he supported the bill and then later changed his mind when faced with a bunch of political and media pressure. He also wrote and proposed a similar bill way back in 1996 when he was in the legislature so saying he supports such measures is FACT not opinion even if he backed down under pressure yesterday.

2) The contents of the bill were exactly as I said, you know it, I know, everyone knows it so stop trying to muddy the waters.

3) I said Republicans are out to stop abortion and they tried to use this highly invasive measure to intimidate women into not going through with it and that is exactly what they've done.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26315908...show/#46490494

[kentonio]

Why are you trying to demonize me?

Honestly? because you're pissing me off. When I hear the normal BK types spouting this crap then I don't let it get to me, but when people who should know better do, then it winds me up.

I guess if you demonize your opponents, than you can feel good about supporting mass murder of the innocent.

Bit rich of course that you talk about demonizing when repeatedly you've fallen back on this 'you must all just like murdering babies' bullshit. Here's a clue: no-one is pro-abortion.

If women don't want to have children, they can get this taken care of. If they get pregnant, I am even OK with with them aborting early in the first trimester! I am not unreasonable here.

But yes, they might have to spend a few months and bear a child.

Except women don't always find out early in the first trimester, and for low income women especially getting the access to have an abortion can take them over that kind of limit.

Just like someone who gets drunk and runs over someone might have to work for a few years to pay that persons medical bills/etc.

You see thats just offensive.

[Jon Miller]

Now lets just think a second, who are the groups in America who are most anti-contraception and increasingly attempt to remove the ability of low income women to access contraception?

Seriously stop trying to force women to return to their former slave like roles, they're not going to take it.

I know that some groups (Catholics) have religious reasons to oppose all contraception.

I am heavily in favor of contraception.

Just because pro-life people have some who think this way does not mean the pro-life people are wrong.

JM
(I actually know some people who think similar to me who consider themselves 'pro-choice'. If that tells you how far people have been influenced.)

[kentonio]

I know about poor hispanics. I said white women. Maybe I should have posted all the statistics with clarifications, and included all minority groups. My statement is still correct.

And I am not being racist. I explicitly did not say that african-americans have a bizarre cultural tendency towards abortion.

I said that they are lied to.

Being lied to does not mean it is OK.

Actually, I think they are lied to by 'good white folks' along with selfish african-americans. After all, who is most likely to think that more black children are undesirables?

JM

How pray tell to you lie to an entire race of women, regardless of income and local geography? Actually I can think of one avenue that could be used, maybe the pulpit?

[Jon Miller]

You see thats just offensive.

I think that murder is offensive. There is nothing that excuses the murder of innocents, sorry.

I do get a bit riled up about this. I have said my piece. Maybe better if I disengage now.

JM

[Dinner]

Yet again you manage to be wrong. They were not mandating an ultrasound they were mandating a transvaginal ultrasound, and not because it was necessary but because they wanted to use it to put off women from having abortions.



Congratulations on being wrong in the 123,232,321th thread in a row.

I still can't believe HC is still trying to pretend the mandate wasn't for a vaginal penetration ultra sound. Good job on calling him out on it.

[Jon Miller]

How pray tell to you lie to an entire race of women, regardless of income and local geography? Actually I can think of one avenue that could be used, maybe the pulpit?

It is used.

Also the school system and family planning groups.

JM
(I have heard the words, from the pulpit, of "sacred right of choice")