You generally take a birth control pill before you conceive; it doesn't really work after.Originally Posted by Dinner
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
So a lot of people believe abortion is murder and there is a legitimate reason to do so, religious or otherwise. I'm not going to get into that argument because it's not germaine. This just means it's not about women's rights to them.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
No, that's you grasping at anything to survive. You did not make strong arguments in this thread.
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
"Capitalism ho!"
Regardless of whether they care about women's rights, the legislation is still paternalistic towards women.
That's coming from the most likely contender for "least insightful poster on this site." 90% of what you post is either stating outright Zevico is dumb or HC is dumb and the remaining 10% is mostly unfunny jokes. I would like to point out that for one, Zevico typically writes very insightful posts. I don't always agree with them but he always has something interesting to say. You never do. You do things like this, declaring yourself the winner.
xpost
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
I merely describing the situation you're in. I also was not criticizing you, I was simply pointing out that you did not make strong arguments for your case. This is supported by your current histrionics.
Now on a personal level, since you decided to go there, I've already stated that you aren't worth arguing with. You've yet to post anything insightful on this site. At this moment, your opinion has no value to me.
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
"Capitalism ho!"
Well, we can do more terrorism, if you like. Those are the only options SCOTUS left us. Take your pick.
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Yeah, maybe you should be more open about your violent intentions.
There are only two options: paternalism or terrorism? Seriously?
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
"Capitalism ho!"
If they weren't then they wouldn't be trying to force things stuffed up women's vaginas, would they. Face it, anti-female is exactly what they are and they want to brow beat and intimidate women into doing what THEY want women to do. I call that anti-female.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
About what, that you've outdone Kidicious at the mystic art of the hissy-fit? I guess you could be neck and neck. You could probably improve your game with a little extra Godwin-Fu and some excessive use of caps lock/thesmiley. Work on it.
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To be fair, Elok, you clearly haven't entered this thread with the intention of have a serious discussion...again.
“As a lifelong member of the Columbia Business School community, I adhere to the principles of truth, integrity, and respect. I will not lie, cheat, steal, or tolerate those who do.”
"Capitalism ho!"
Actually, I think I like Reg. I think I might know him from a forum I used to post at but got banned on. Hell, I am an awful uncivilized **** when it comes to debating but I like to think I'm a passionate proponent for my point of view. In any event it is great to get drunk and argue with people on the internet.
"Our scientific power has out run out spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men." - Martin Luther King Jr.
"A cynical, mercenary, demagogic press will produce in time a people as base as itself." - Joseph Pulitzer
Abortion is an incredibly hard topic if you really look at it seriously. The point that everyone should be looking at is: What is governments role in abortion?
To me, government should have no role in deciding what one person does to their own body. The question that abortion raises is when does a fetus become a person? To simply say that life begins at conception is to state the obvious...from a purely biological point of view, there is no doubt that a fetus is alive. But...is it a person? To say that it is not a person until the moment of birth is equally miopic. A fetus is not fundamentally different 5 minutes before it is born. Where is the point that something changes from being a mass of living cells and becomes a person?
I don't think anyone can exactly measure that. However, that is the point that the government becomes obligated to protect the rights of that person.
This is the real debate and it is one that cannot be settled until science provides us a reliable answer. Until then, it is a matter that must be decided by each persons own thoughts or moral code. The way for people to express the responsibilities of government is through their elected representatives. The responsibility for the people is to continue to express their thoughts and feelings to and through these representatives.
This appears to be the process that we continually see being played out. It is unlikely that anything will change until the scientific answer is known. Until then, people will continue to call those that disagree with them "morons" and will continue to take extremists viewpoints to try and emphasize their way of thinking.
Democracy sometimes sucks, but it is the best deal going.
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003
Science may help in identifying when personhood begins, but I don't think a definition of personhood is agreed on. The people claiming "life begins at conception" apparently believe that any organism with human DNA is a person even if it is just a couple of cells. To them the science is already settled.
We say that a baby is a person when he (I'm using "he" instead of "it" to represent personhood) is outside of the womb. However viability at this point goes back ridiculously far. As PLATO said, there's no real physiological difference in the fetus inside versus outside. So either it's okay to kill some babies once they've been born, or it's not okay to abort the fetus beforehand if it's after viability.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
Viability still doesn't answer the question of personhood though. As you indicate, viability is an increasing fuction of science. What would we do if we could sustain a fetus from the day after conception outside the womb? Would it then be a "person"? I don't think so, but then that is only an opinion.
Just as gribbler says, there are those that believe that just because it is alive and has human DNA some people believe that it is a person. However, just because we can sustain life in living tissue does not make it a person to me. If some of my skin cells were sustained seperate from my body and nurtured to grow and reproduce, I certainly don't think that would be a person even though it contains human DNA.
Both of your posts bring back the central falacy...we just don't know what makes living cells a person. Until then, it is a debatable point.......and rightly so.
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003
I agree completely.
I come from the land of the ice and snow
From the rust belt where industry won't go
Right now in the US you can kill a baby just because it isn't able to say 'no' yet.
This is obviously wrong. And not consistent with where we judge humans to be alive in other senses.
PLATO and regexcellent, you guys do not understand. According to your reasoning, it is fine to kill babies even after birth (which I think Che defended).
We currently kill babies long after brain functions exist.
One of the main issues is that it is in a lot of peoples interest to not admit that babies are a person, since it would inconvenience them.
JM
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
I think it was Loinburger who refuted the notion that skin cells and/or sperm are as much a person as an embryo.
edit: (wanted to add something here)
Also, I disagree with the idea that science can somehow tell us when a fetus becomes a person. This is an arbitrary definition that we as a society have to agree upon somewhere. I don't see a difference between abortion and the old eskimo practice of killing sick infants. It's all just an act of expedience.
Last edited by Hauldren Collider; February 23, 2012 at 03:32.
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
By the way, it might not be necessary but I'd like to call additional attention to the incredible wrongness streak Oerdin has had in this thread, about the contents of the bill, whether it has even passed the legislature, whether the governor intended to sign, and then his whole conspiracy theory about Republicans wanting nothing more than to own women's bodies. He's really outdone himself.
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
Yet again you manage to be wrong. They were not mandating an ultrasound they were mandating a transvaginal ultrasound, and not because it was necessary but because they wanted to use it to put off women from having abortions.
Congratulations on being wrong in the 123,232,321th thread in a row.
Well done, you just attacked the guy who has been most stridently pro-life in this thread. Good work.
Here's a thought, you are ignorant. Regexcellent is ignorant. HC is obviously ignorant, but we can take that as read. Funnily enough I am also ignorant. Why? Because none of us have the physical capability to bear a child or experience the hormonal changes that pregnancy causes. It's so ****ing easy for us to sit back talking about what women should or shouldn't do with their bodies, while never having to face the consequences of those decisions.
For a woman to have an abortion is an incredibly traumatic experience. It isn't something they do on their lunch hour because they couldn't be arsed to pick up some condoms. It can lead to years of depression, self guilt and hurt. Women understand this, but also understand that sometimes terminating a pregnancy is something that is the correct thing to do for them. If you bother to look back to the time before abortion was legal, you'll find millions of women voluntarily facing illegal abortions that often led to death, permanent injury or sometimes rape. If women want to outlaw abortion then that's their call, but for a bunch of men to sit around preaching morality about something they can never experience is frankly disgusting.
Women are not a single bloc with simplistic, shared ideas. They all however have the right to a say in the matter. The idea that the poor dears don't all share a single idea however is a beautiful example of archaic republican thinking.
I don't understand how it is to be a German.
It is really easy to tell them what they should do with their nation. That they shouldn't have gassed millions of Jews, homosexuals and others. But I don't understand what it is to be German.
**** saying that women have a right to murder just because they are pregnant, go through hormonal changes and so on.
They have just as much right to kill the living human being, as they do to kill their husband or mother-in-law, or someone passing by on the street.
JM
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Do you also believe that people suffering from horrifically painful terminal diseases should have to suffer through months of agony because euthanasia is also murder? I assume you are also pacifist in every single situation, regardless of genocide, mass rape and torture, medical experimentation etc?
Except that it isn't a human being, its a ball of cells that in the natural course of events is rejected by the body in something like 50% of cases anyway. When you get to the point of late stage abortion, I actually have some sympathy for pro-life views, but even then it really isn't my decision. If you remove the right to any abortion then you are telling women that once they become pregnant either by chance or rape or whatever, that they are forced to undergo 9 months of traumatic changes to their body that can sometimes lead to terrible physical damage and sometimes death.
My Ex-gf recently found out that since birth she has had a hole in her heart that had never been detected before. Any massive strain on the body could kill her instantly, and its frankly a miracle that shes still alive. If she had become pregnant and that hole had THEN been discovered are you telling me that you would sentence her to death?
Nope, I favor euthanasia.
As the persons choice. Not being forced on them.
Abortion is not the persons choice.
I am pro-choice. Abortion is the most anti-choice action that can be made, as it removes a lifetime of choices for a person.
I am not one who thinks that a human being exists at conception. Only when brainwaves exist or a heart is beating or any of the other signs that someone is alive that we use.
I think it is extremely dishonest, evil, and criminal that people claim that a baby is not a human, while those that display even less of the signs but have spoken a word are. Even those who have displayed a lot less of the signs.
JM
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
You didn't answer my question, would you have sentenced my ex-girlfriend to death by removing the right to abortion if she had become accidentally pregnant or had become pregnant after being raped?
You also didn't answer whether you are a pacifist under all conditions.
I think that, just like in cases with adults, that if the life of the mother is at risk that this needs to be decided by the people involved (most importantly, the mother).
But that isn't the case for abortion now.
Why should she get to decide to kill someone because she made a mistake? It isn't like "oh, I drove drunk so since I made a mistake I get the right to choose to kill people" or "I got drunk, got in an accident, both me and another person need treatment. If the other person lives I will be responsible for their medical treatment. The other person is not able to speak. So they ask me if I want to give the other person treatment so they will live."
Actually, it is much more like the second one.
It continues to amaze me that this is even something people discuss.
I don't see how killing innocents is somehow the same as killing in defense/etc (like US during WW2) or if someone is raping my mother.
JM
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
In this case every selfish person will decide to kill the other person. Because that is better for them. We agree that it is unethical.
Yet we don't agree that abortion is generally unethical.
I am not saying that abortion is unethical in the situation where only one gets to live.
JM
Jon Miller-
I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
I would just like to see Republicans who are genuinely in favor of a less intrusive government.
This is where an awesome Mark Twain quote would be, but Apolyton says it would be too many lines. :(
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