Shogun 2: Total War

[Al B. Sure!]

Really? No interest in this game? You all would rather play Dragon Age or something?

[Felch]

Empire was fun, Napoleon was a disappointment, and I'll probably get this when it's bundled with DLC.

[Al B. Sure!]

Really? All I've read on forums was universal agreement than Napoleon was what Empire should have been.

[Felch]

In Empire you could bombard fortresses with unlimited quicklime from howitzers. Napoleon nerfed that.

[Guynemer]

Empire was alright, but I'm a little gunshy on these games now. Nothing has really grabbed me since Rome.

[OzzyKP]

I just finished most of the campaign on Empire (like two hours ago). The game was engaging for a bit, but I think I'm over it now. I got Medieval II, opened it up, but couldn't bring myself to play. (you can only pick like 6 countries? lame).

Maybe I just needed to play on a higher difficulty on Empire (I picked the default middle-of-the-road setting) but once I figured out a good strategy for the battles it became a boring rinse & repeat chore.

[Al B. Sure!]

Well I like it.

It's much smaller in scope with a lot fewer units but that's probably better... no confusion trying to figure out how Ottoman Beylik Janissary Musketeers stand up against Austrian Grenzers and all that other vague obscure stuff.

But that also means there's less variety which may make the game boring in the long-run.


Ozzy, what country did you play with in Empire? Maybe playing as one of the American Indian tribes, the Ottomans, or the Indians would be vastly different.

[Proteus_MST]

...
I got Medieval II, opened it up, but couldn't bring myself to play. (you can only pick like 6 countries? lame).
...

Not fully correct...
you can play much more countries, but you have to unlock them by winning a game playing one of the factions present at the beginning.
There may even be a cheat that lets you unlock the other countries without meeting this requirement

[Guynemer]

Most reviews are glowing so far; I may wait to see if there are any big patches needed.

[EPW]

Wow, this one looks much better than Empire. The AI is always a worry though. The multiplayer looks pretty good too.

[Al B. Sure!]

The AI is tougher than what I experienced in my limited time playing Empire custom battles. In Empire, Normal difficulty was a joke and even Hard wasn't very hard. In Shogun, Hard is very tough for me even with a superior force. However, there are 2 related AI glitches. One, a minor one, is that the AI doesn't seem to put its units in loose formation when under archer attack. A bigger problem is that if the AI is defending a castle, you can just rain arrows on them the whole time and the AI pretty much just stands there. I've noticed the cavalry start running towards the rear of the castle when I start hitting them so the AI sort of knows what to do but the other units just stand there and get decimated. Really strange. It's not a huge deal most of the time though because typically a few archer units at the walls can typically take on twice as many archers outside of the walls but any time the AI is defending with no archers or significantly fewer archers than the besiegers, there's a problem.

Part of the reason why the game may be so good though is because of the limited scope. There's a lot fewer units to worry about so that makes the battles better since, like I said, there's no "how do Beylik Janissaries stand up against Grenzers?" and all that weird stuff. The relationships between the units are better defined. This does make me worry about the long-term playability of the game, though, because the factions are so similar, use the same units, etc. There's no drastically different experience like there was in Empire between the Dutch, the Maratha, and the Cherokee.

However, the tech tree is designed so that it is not likely that you will research all the techs. Also, since you want to field better units, you will probably specialize with certain units, probably keeping with the bonuses of your clan. In my first campaign game as the Shimazu, I never even went down the 'defense' side of the tech tree so never even had any Naginata infantry or gunpowder units.

The skill tree for the generals/agents is also very deep and large so you will probably spend some time developing your generals/agents and there is some replayability in that.

It's a very good game probably largely due to its narrow scope. That, however, could be a double-edged sword because it makes me wonder about its long-term replayability beyond a few campaigns.

There is multiplayer though...

[N35t0r]

I'll probably give this a look after I'm finished with Dragon Age 2.

[Lonestar]

I've found that if you don't play as a Western-clan it is *very* hard to afford Samuaia stacks(as in, keeping the western trading posts secure). It's also difficult to tell when you have "crossed the line" and are about ready to cause the "Realm Divide" event. I was very friendly with the Shogunate when they abruptly decided I was their worst enemy(while I had my samurai stacks fighting elsewhere), rallied the Takeda, and took over several of my Eastern provinces on the main island. I got so frustrated I restarted.

[Proteus_MST]

Got the game now as well.

I have to admit that I really like the arrow cam
(if you press "insert" you get into the Ego view of a soldier of your chosen unit...
if it is an archer unit and the soldier shoots an arrow,
you are transferred to an arrow cam, where you can watch in slow motion,
how the arrow together with the rest of the salvo flies towards the enemy unit...
if the distance between archer and target is short enough, you can watch the whole flight,
till it hits the enemy (or something else ))

[Al B. Sure!]

I've found that if you don't play as a Western-clan it is *very* hard to afford Samuaia stacks(as in, keeping the western trading posts secure). It's also difficult to tell when you have "crossed the line" and are about ready to cause the "Realm Divide" event. I was very friendly with the Shogunate when they abruptly decided I was their worst enemy(while I had my samurai stacks fighting elsewhere), rallied the Takeda, and took over several of my Eastern provinces on the main island. I got so frustrated I restarted.

You get warnings every time you go up a level in the "Shogun's Ire". Plus you can check it anytime you want from the Daimyo screen.

People on the Shogun 2 forum ***** about it's too hard with realm divide but that's because you can't just expand and expand and expand. The mid-game is about consolidation before the final push for Kyoto.

[SpencerH]

Unfortunately S2TW also uses steam so I'm ****ed. On a bright note I've downloaded a bunch of promising mods for RTW that I plan to try tommorow (after mowing the front lawn and recovering from the near heart attack)!

[Felch]

I've checked into that "Steam is a rootkit" thing, and I've found no evidence for it. Maybe you should give Steam a shot.

[Lonestar]

You get warnings every time you go up a level in the "Shogun's Ire". Plus you can check it anytime you want from the Daimyo screen.

People on the Shogun 2 forum ***** about it's too hard with realm divide but that's because you can't just expand and expand and expand. The mid-game is about consolidation before the final push for Kyoto.

My "warnings" popup was the fame my clan had, with a half-ass mention that eventually I may tick off the Shogun. As my relations with the Shoganate were "Very Friendly" all the way up to Realm Divide it's a bit misleading.

And of curse if my Samurai staks are elswhere when the Realm Divide happens, I'm pretty much up the creek.

[Al B. Sure!]

My "warnings" popup was the fame my clan had, with a half-ass mention that eventually I may tick off the Shogun. As my relations with the Shoganate were "Very Friendly" all the way up to Realm Divide it's a bit misleading.

And of curse if my Samurai staks are elswhere when the Realm Divide happens, I'm pretty much up the creek.

That's how it works. When that fame bar fills up, the Shogun freaks out.

[Proteus_MST]

Discovered a slight flaw in the Battle AI.

Got sieged by the Sagara Clan (formerly renowned trading partners of me, till they got greedy and thought they could get one of my provinces). It as a hard defence (me having a few ashigaru archers and yari troops, the enemy having 2 armies, onbe with ashigaru archers and yari troops, as well as severyl cavalry unis).
When I had repulsed the storm of his ashigaru foot troops and his archers ran out of ammo, his archers tried to climb the walls and storm the castle.
When they, too, got repulsed and fled in panic then enemy did...

nothing

That´s right, the enemys still had his general and several cavalry units, but they just stood below my castles walls and didn´t do anything (like for example, dismounting and trying to climb the walls as well (which evben might have succeeded, as my troops were low on morale and men).
There were also the enemy reinforcement troops, fresh units which contained a few foot troops, which surely would have broken my morale if they would have been used, but they, too, did nothing but stand at the location, where they entered the map.
So I just had to wait it out, resulting in my province staying in my own hands, the enemy losing 1400 men (compared to my 800) and the Sagara clan getting wiped out the next turn, as my own army already had entered the Sagara home province and found his home catsle almost completely undefended.

[Lonestar]

That's how it works. When that fame bar fills up, the Shogun freaks out.

In the game I'm playing right now another clan (Takeda) overthrew the Shogun and occupied Kyoto. You'd think that would cause a Realm Divide event against that clan, but a few turns later the Realm Divide event was instigated against me(Fortunately occupying Kyoto was easy, right now though it's one hell of a grind with a lot of losing provinces-taking provinces going on)

[SpencerH]

I've checked into that "Steam is a rootkit" thing, and I've found no evidence for it. Maybe you should give Steam a shot.

You didnt check hard enough then

The steam client is a program that has access to the internet, can be changed at will by a second party i.e. Valve (or anyone else smart enough to spoof as Valve), collects unknown data from your PC, and uploads whatever data it has collected to other locations all without you knowing what it has sent (that behaviour is illegal in Europe but it hasnt reached the courts yet).

What is it about that process that has anyone feeling comfortable? That you can set it to an "offline mode". Even in "offline mode" the Steam client 'pings home' meaning it still has internet access and uses it. An earlier version of the client automatically changed from "offline mode" to online after 30 days. Valve got caught red-handed and changed it. Who's to say they wont change it back? Who's to say they wont install a version that requires it to be online? Sure you can prevent internet access via other means but then you cant patch your game. You want to play the games you've legally purchased, you have to use their program! They've got you by the balls.

A component of Valves revenue comes from their sale of gaming information and trends. They also currently collect hardware info and plan to collect software data "that will help them improve their service". Big Brother? Maybe not but I wont install it on a PC that has any personal data of any kind.

[Al B. Sure!]

Discovered a slight flaw in the Battle AI.

Got sieged by the Sagara Clan (formerly renowned trading partners of me, till they got greedy and thought they could get one of my provinces). It as a hard defence (me having a few ashigaru archers and yari troops, the enemy having 2 armies, onbe with ashigaru archers and yari troops, as well as severyl cavalry unis).
When I had repulsed the storm of his ashigaru foot troops and his archers ran out of ammo, his archers tried to climb the walls and storm the castle.
When they, too, got repulsed and fled in panic then enemy did...

nothing

That´s right, the enemys still had his general and several cavalry units, but they just stood below my castles walls and didn´t do anything (like for example, dismounting and trying to climb the walls as well (which evben might have succeeded, as my troops were low on morale and men).
There were also the enemy reinforcement troops, fresh units which contained a few foot troops, which surely would have broken my morale if they would have been used, but they, too, did nothing but stand at the location, where they entered the map.
So I just had to wait it out, resulting in my province staying in my own hands, the enemy losing 1400 men (compared to my 800) and the Sagara clan getting wiped out the next turn, as my own army already had entered the Sagara home province and found his home catsle almost completely undefended.

Yeah I've heard there's a problem with the AI and reinforcements during a siege. The cavalry not dismounting is odd, though. The generals and cavalry always dismount and are the last ones to climb the walls during my sieges.

[Dr Strangelove]

I'll probably get Shogun TW eventually. I'm still miffed enough by the failure of Civ 5 that I can't bring myself to buy another Steam product.

[SpencerH]

If you mean shogun 2, it's also Steam (thats why I wont play it). If you mean the original Shogun, it may be a diabolical pain to make work on a modern PC.

[Felch]

You didnt check hard enough then

The steam client is a program that has access to the internet, can be changed at will by a second party i.e. Valve (or anyone else smart enough to spoof as Valve), collects unknown data from your PC, and uploads whatever data it has collected to other locations all without you knowing what it has sent (that behaviour is illegal in Europe but it hasnt reached the courts yet).

What is it about that process that has anyone feeling comfortable? That you can set it to an "offline mode". Even in "offline mode" the Steam client 'pings home' meaning it still has internet access and uses it. An earlier version of the client automatically changed from "offline mode" to online after 30 days. Valve got caught red-handed and changed it. Who's to say they wont change it back? Who's to say they wont install a version that requires it to be online? Sure you can prevent internet access via other means but then you cant patch your game. You want to play the games you've legally purchased, you have to use their program! They've got you by the balls.

A component of Valves revenue comes from their sale of gaming information and trends. They also currently collect hardware info and plan to collect software data "that will help them improve their service". Big Brother? Maybe not but I wont install it on a PC that has any personal data of any kind.

Do you seriously think that you still have any privacy? Everything you do is being cataloged by some marketing agency somewhere. So what if there's one more program on my computer doing that? Google and Microsoft know things about me my own mother doesn't know. So what if Valve collects the same data?

[Proteus_MST]

Shouldn´t Steam deserve its own thread?

After all S2TW isn´t the only game that forces us to use Steam.
I can remember a certain game from Firaxis, that came out last year for example (which was the reason why I started to use Steam)

[Lonestar]

I'll probably get Shogun TW eventually. I'm still miffed enough by the failure of Civ 5 that I can't bring myself to buy another Steam product.

Civ5 isn't a "Steam Product". It's a product that uses Steam. Shogun 2 is made by someone else.

[Proteus_MST]

Yeah I've heard there's a problem with the AI and reinforcements during a siege. The cavalry not dismounting is odd, though. The generals and cavalry always dismount and are the last ones to climb the walls during my sieges.

Yes, it´s strange.
Happened a 2nd time now, this time a large castle was attacked by a huge Takeda army (which of course had more than one cavalry unit, after all they were Takeda ).
The Takeda stopped their attempts to storm the castle, when there were still several cavalry troops, 3 general units as well as 2 bow ashigaru units out there.
My own troops already had withdrawn to the innermost circle of the fortress, so, theoretically the Takeda archers would have been able to conquer all outer gates, enabling their mounted units to get into the next to last fortress ring without unmounting.
(well, de facto Takeda troops managed to conquer gates during their storm on my fortress...unfortunately all conquered gates were in the 2nd ring, leaving the outer gates still in my possession...despite one of the 2 archer units being within the outer ring, they didn´t try to conquer the gate located there).

The siege AI doesn´t seem to act very intelligent
Either this, or it acts like a real human commander who sees the main body of his army trying to storm a castle and then coming back fleeing (with only few survivors) and who then is unwilling to sacrifice the lives of the men in his few remaining units (and own live) as well

btw. am I the only one who thinks that units within a fortress are rather unprotected against arrows?
One would assume that at least 1-2 defending units should be able to enter the keep in the middle of every fortress, thereby gaining some protection against arrows (maybe the same amount of protection, your castle walls give you, but in all 4 directions) and in the end making the keep the last chance for defense, if all of the walls have been taken
(this would also make it a little bit harder for the player to invade AI controlled castles...at the moment often all you have to do is to place your archer units in a way, that they can reach all units within the bailey with their arrows (and ideally be able to shoot at defending archery units behind walls from an angle, from which bthey aren´t protected by the castles walls))

[Al B. Sure!]

I got Rome Total War Gold for free with Shogun and I started playing it. It's pretty good but obviously dated, but is even better with the Mod Europa Barbarorum. If anyone has Rome, I suggest trying out that mod. There's a version for Medieval 2 Total War, as well, that is about to come out.

http://www.europabarbarorum.com/index.html