The Future of Scenario League - a Proposal

techumseh · January 10, 2011, 01:33

Fellow Scenario League members:

In the last few months, the new management of Apolyton has been working to remake the site. Much great work has been done, but in the process, Apolyton has had to downsize somewhat and establish new priorities. The result is that some of the supports that Scenario League has depended upon are no longer available. Hosted sites like the SL wiki and graphics on the forums are a couple of examples.

In the last month, a group of eight of the more active SL members has been discussing the situation and trying to figure out what to do about it. SL members have contributed hundreds of thousands of hours producing scenarios, graphics, articles and how-to tips over the last ten years or so. It's essential, in our opinion, that these resources remain accessable and secure. Unfortunately, we no longer believe that this is the case.

We considered 3 options: stay with Apolyton, create our own site, or seek another host site. The first option, staying with Apolyton, was rejected because of the difficulties outlined above. The second, creating our own site, was considered and ultimately rejected because of the lack of a connection with the Civ community. A group as small as ours needs to be plugged into the larger group to survive. So we decided that affiliation with a new host offered the most advantages.

The largest Civ site by far is the Civilization Fanatics (CFC) site. It has a large data base, more threads and forum activity, and many more active members than Apolyton. We approached CFC about hosting Scenario League, on the same terms as our existing arrangement with Apolyton: hosting the SL wiki site (we have saved a copy of the site) and our own SL forum, with the right to elect our own moderators. Scenario League has always been an autonomous group within Apolyton, and we asked CFC to respect that as well.

After some negotiations, CFC has tentatvely agreed, pending a discussion amoung all the members. To ensure that everyone has a say, we are initiating this discussion thread. Whether you are currently active, or were in the past, we hope you will participate and support our proposal. We feel that CivFanatics will offer a secure new home for SL and will expand our exposure to the broader Civ Community. Based on our discussions so far, we believe the CFC management is competent, stable and will respect our work and our autonomy. If there is overall agreement among the membership, Bill Schneider (Harry Tuttle) will lead the work to re-establish the SL wiki site. Ciaran Slavin (CurtSibling), Drew Shortis (McMonkey) and Martin Olofsson (Arthedain) will continue for the time being as the forum moderators.

We have emailed Robert Plomp to inform him about our proposal. His response was very professional and cooperative. We appreciate his understanding.

Thank you for considering our proposal. We will be happy to answer any questions.

Sincerely,

Bill Schneider (Harry Tuttle),
Ciaran Slavin (CurtSibling),
John Slankis (AGRICOLA),
Drew Shortis (McMonkey),
Martin Olofsson (Arthedain),
Gareth Birch (Fairline),
Vincent Frachbourg (Cyrion),
Brian Mason (techumseh).

Note: a "member" of SL is anyone who posts on the SL forum or who has contributed to the SL site by uploading scenarios, graphics, articles or other files. Previously active members are welcome to participate.

Varwnos · January 10, 2011, 10:25

Good news, as i am far more active in CFC. So expect to see me there too

torbk · January 10, 2011, 12:22

In one way I am sad that the move is needed, but on the other hand I agree on the arguments presented. I am also well familiar with the CivFanatics site. It is a good choice.

civ2units · January 10, 2011, 13:09

Well if it is neccessary to move to Civfanatics I would like to say:

Let's do it

I have an account there but didn´t use it much. I know they have a big database for Civ4 files (yes, I´m also playing Civ4 sometimes. But be sure, Civ2 and ToT will be always my favorites).

I´m really missing the SL and hoping that the SL will work on Civfanatics.

Varwnos · January 10, 2011, 13:23

Will the SL be joined to the existant CFC civ2 creation forum?

Arthedain · January 10, 2011, 13:24

As it is now, we will get our own section of the forum (correct me if I'm wrong, guys).

McMonkey · January 10, 2011, 14:16

The Scenario League forum and its associated sites (the Cradle of Civilization and the Scenario League wiki) will be separate from the existing Civ2 Scenario Creation forum at Civ Fanatics which has its own moderators and its own history. Hopefully having two Civ2 Scenario forums on one will not cause any friction. The thought of forum wars is not a pleasant one, but seriously I think the active online Civ2 community is so small nowadays that any form of consolidation can only strengthen us. Hopefully there will be extra traffic generated for both forums. I have been keen on working more closely with the other Civ2 communities on the net for a long time, and although it was not the reason behind the move it could be an unexpected benefit!

I would like to thank techumseh for his work on the move, he has been a proper leader. I would also like to thank Harry Tuttle for his foresight in saving the SL Wiki, good catch! Finally I would like to thank Robert Plomp for being so understanding about the need for a move, you are a gentleman and I wish you the best for the future of Apolyton. If I ever get into Civ4 or 5 (IE if I ever join the 21st century) I will still be a visitor to this site still!

Varwnos · January 11, 2011, 09:19

So, when will the move happen?

techumseh · January 11, 2011, 11:48

I'd like to give people a few more days to respond. Not everyone checks in every day.

Hans99 · January 11, 2011, 12:13

I appreciate that step. The more of CIV 2 Players are on one spot the better. Altough it is a bit sad to go somewhere else, live goes on. I will still check and write at apolyton regularly. I remember my first time at apolyton somtime in 2002. I was just a reader then but it was very interesting to follow the discussions about game mechanics and other things. Also the most astonishing graphics came from talents at apolyton. But most important is to preserve the SL site, since many people put a lot of work in it to create a very valuable ressource for all scenario designers. So i am with you.

MacGalleo · January 11, 2011, 12:15

I agree with your proposal. I hope Scenario League will live at civfanatics for many and many years.

N35t0r · January 11, 2011, 15:22

While I rarely surf CFC, I do understand that it'd be better to move there, activity-wise. I'd most probably stop lurking as often as I do now, but it's not much of a loss to you guys

...

As for the technical difficulties, I'd be inclined to give the new management some more time to get their act together, for the sake of our history here, but I don't know if stuff like the wiki is a 'not possible' or a 'give us some more time'.

I'm not completely sure what you mean by 'graphics on the forums' though... Because images can be attached... If you mean the old thread images, then I doubt CFC is going to upload them all to their respective places...

Timoleon · January 11, 2011, 15:42

Well, I have a sentimental attachment to Poly.
I was hoping things would eventually work out... :/

EZRhino · January 11, 2011, 17:00

I've been a member of Apolyton for almost nine years, and lurked for years before that. As sad as I would be to see the Scenario League leave its traditional host, as a community of devotees of a fifteen year old computer game without unity and continuing dynamism we will evaporate. I support the proposal. Thank you gentlemen for your unceasing activism.

-Erin Schmidt

Arthedain · January 12, 2011, 03:11

Originally Posted by N35t0r

I'm not completely sure what you mean by 'graphics on the forums' though... Because images can be attached... If you mean the old thread images, then I doubt CFC is going to upload them all to their respective places...

If we look at old graphics, all is gone here. And if you check the CivFanatics forums there's graphics there from many years ago. The point is if we start posting graphics there now, they will be around longer there, than here. It's not the first time we've lost all our attachments here.

bc1871 · January 12, 2011, 05:56

If the move will save the Scenario League, then I fully support this venture.

Palaiologos2 · January 12, 2011, 12:14

Yeah, why not.

H Tower · January 12, 2011, 14:42

I haven't posted at CFC since Jan 2002, but if moving to there is what it takes to keep the results of thousands of hours of scenario creation intact, then that's what has to be done. I'd be curious to see exactly what Poly's owners had to say about your notification.

Harry Tuttle · January 12, 2011, 14:45

Originally Posted by H Tower

I haven't posted at CFC since Jan 2002, but if moving to there is what it takes to keep the results of thousands of hours of scenario creation intact, then that's what has to be done. I'd be curious to see exactly what Poly's owners had to say about your notification.

Robert was professional and apologetic in his response. It was very appreciated.

H Tower · January 12, 2011, 15:00

There was no "Give us some more time" or "We're on the verge" sort of comment?

H Tower · January 12, 2011, 15:05

Originally Posted by McMonkey

The Scenario League forum and its associated sites (the Cradle of Civilization and the Scenario League wiki) will be separate from the existing Civ2 Scenario Creation forum at Civ Fanatics which has its own moderators and its own history. Hopefully having two Civ2 Scenario forums on one will not cause any friction. The thought of forum wars is not a pleasant one, but seriously I think the active online Civ2 community is so small nowadays that any form of consolidation can only strengthen us. Hopefully there will be extra traffic generated for both forums. I have been keen on working more closely with the other Civ2 communities on the net for a long time, and although it was not the reason behind the move it could be an unexpected benefit!

I would like to thank techumseh for his work on the move, he has been a proper leader. I would also like to thank Harry Tuttle for his foresight in saving the SL Wiki, good catch! Finally I would like to thank Robert Plomp for being so understanding about the need for a move, you are a gentleman and I wish you the best for the future of Apolyton. If I ever get into Civ4 or 5 (IE if I ever join the 21st century) I will still be a visitor to this site still!

I just took a quick look at CFC's creation forum, and they have three threads that have had more than 5 posts in them since August. Somehow I doubt there will be friction.

McMonkey · January 12, 2011, 16:18

@H Tower
Forum wars with only a handful to troops on either side does sound a bit pitiful anyway. I can't see why anyone would have any strong objections to our move there either.

McMonkey · January 12, 2011, 16:22

More importantly than friction, what about my post count. Its taken me years to get up to 2500+ posts. I'm going to have to spam like mad to establish myself there

H Tower · January 12, 2011, 16:45

I know that Off Topic posts at CFC used to count, don't know if they still do. Go make fun of Obama (or Palin) and you'll have more people to post with(against?) in no time!

Harry Tuttle · January 12, 2011, 17:09

Originally Posted by H Tower

There was no "Give us some more time" or "We're on the verge" sort of comment?

No. I think that he has been aware of the issues we mentioned and did not really express surprise that we wanted to move. Without copying and pasting his email I can say that he wished us the best and said that he was sorry that they could not provide the services we wanted.

I would read into that last comment and identify that there is a lot work that needs to be done on the Apolyton site as a whole, which leaves the Apolyton staff with a full plate. Our issues have been the wiki downtime, the attachment of graphics on the forums, and the lobotomized archived threads to name a few.

AGRICOLA · January 12, 2011, 18:13

Originally Posted by McMonkey

More importantly than friction, what about my post count. Its taken me years to get up to 2500+ posts. I'm going to have to spam like mad to establish myself there

Don't do it . . . . . . unless you can afford to lose your position as Moderator par Excellence in these difficult economic times.

Case · January 13, 2011, 02:09

This makes sense to me and, if permission is needed, I'm happy to agree to anything I've uploaded being moved across to CFC. For us old timers it's a bit of a historic change (I remember when CFC was the site struggling with odd technical problems...).

JPetroski · January 24, 2011, 15:47

As someone who remembers back when Apolyton became Apolyton, this is sad news.

Still, sometimes you have to acknowledge that change is necessary, and this seems to be one of those moments.

Not that I post much (at all), but I'm for it.

techumseh · January 24, 2011, 21:48

I think that looks like a concensus. We will open a Scenario League forum on Civ Fanatics right away. The SL wiki page is a work in progress. We'll post a link as soon as the new forum is live. Thanks everyone for your input. And thanks especially to Apolyton. It's been a fun 12 years.