Reply With QuoteAh, I see what you mean.Originally Posted by C0ckney
The goals of a society should ultimately be decided by those that contribute to said society.
and while we're on the subject, what if people aren't particularly concerned with the welfare of a country but concerned with the welfare of a class, or just themselves.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
Ah, I see what you mean.
The goals of a society should ultimately be decided by those that contribute to said society.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
Do you realize how vague that is? What does contributing to society mean?
"Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
"I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi
How exactly do you plan to avoid a tragedy of the commons if people who vote don't have incentives to care about society?
Also let me make you a bit uncomfortable and suggest that you think to your response of this kind of argument if you replace the word class with ethnicity.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
Contribute as in not being a net drain.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
net drain in what?
"Flutie was better than Kelly, Elway, Esiason and Cunningham." - Ben Kenobi
"I have nothing against Wilson, but he's nowhere near the same calibre of QB as Flutie. Flutie threw for 5k+ yards in the CFL." -Ben Kenobi
and what do you mean by contribute?
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
I'm not saying they don't care at all, I'm just saying that they have a stronger interest in taking care of themselves rather than society as a whole.
Oh I'm well aware of this. This is the same basic argument I use for immigration restriction, a people do have a right to decide with whom they want to live in a country, I firmly support secession and the right to leave emigrate without harassment from one's native country remember?
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
i don't see how this follows from what i wrote. i was making the point that many people see things from the point of view of their class or something else besides country.
certainly people hold such views and in a democratic society people can hold those views. i believe that such views are best countered by using democratic means.Also let me make you a bit uncomfortable and suggest that you think to your response of this kind of argument if you replace the word class with ethnicity.
i would also say that democracy doesn't simply mean voting. it's a society where people have freedom of speech, freedom of association, freedom of conscience and certain other rights guaranteed.
"The Christian way has not been tried and found wanting, it has been found to be hard and left untried" - GK Chesterton.
"The most obvious predicition about the future is that it will be mostly like the past" - Alain de Botton
Taxes for starters. Though there are other possibilities.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
If we are talking about what makes a representative system work (thought there are again other ways to do this), I'm going to say that I'm in favour of all of these freedoms, the ones you list are very good choices since I think a functional republic needs freedom of speech, freedom of association and freedom of conscience very badly. My own most optimistic hopes of reform of the West include those three rights reigning supreme.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
BTW I could be mean and point out that if say smokers feel repressed there will be fewer smokers in a state either through emigration, secession or conversion.
Let me also emphasise that society does need to oppress some, we're just haggling over who. A clear example of this are those convicted of serious crimes, many countries deny them votes at least during their incarceration and all deny them various freedoms for some periods of time.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
I bet I can summarize this ENTIRE THREAD in ONE WORD. Here goes nuthin
*sigh*
If there is no sound in space, how come you can hear the lasers?
:(){ :|:& };:
I have a hard time believing any subset of the population values society as a whole over its own narrow interests. I think even individual people who sincerely feel that way are few and far between.
1011 1100
Isn't the "organic" movement actually a product of feminism? Why do you use feministically loaded words to describe your utopia? Are you a vaginally armed militant?
"tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"
Dr Strangelove, Milosevic had no such vision of Yugoslavia as Greater Serbia. That is propaganda bullshit designed to whip people up into a war-mode frenzy to justify NATO intervention.
Yes I poorly phrased that particular sentence. What I mean and what I've stated in other parts of the thread is that some subsets of the population whose self interests coincide with the interests of the society as a whole more than others.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
He did have a vision of keeping Kosovo and a large chunk of Bosnia Serbian. I can sympathize with both desires but not the methods. Also he wanted for much of the power to be given to Serbia.
This however like you point out isn't a attempt to create a Greater Serbia out of Yugoslavia.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
I am for an unequal society where I am king, and you get to serve me for free every day. If you die, I replace you.. sounds great doesn't it, someone has to be on top, so it is me
Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"
Cort - tell it to me when I was shelled actively for weeks, the Serbs were 1km from my house, and the territory was occupied for 4 years afterwards... and that was in Croatia, 400km from Belgrade, actually about 40km from Slovenian border... not to mention 100k+ dead in Bosnia, or what later went on in Kosovo... even Slovenians had 10 day war in the beginning but it was too hard to wage a proxy war with Croatia standing in the middle...
I thought people were well past that misinformation 10-20 years after
Socrates: "Good is That at which all things aim, If one knows what the good is, one will always do what is good." Brian: "Romanes eunt domus"
GW 2013: "and juistin bieber is gay with me and we have 10 kids we live in u.s.a in the white house with obama"
So... given that our modern society has determined that it's best interest in this regard is "equality"... and since your stated self interest is for a society based on "inequality"... your self interest is conflicting with the mainstream society's interests... and so you shouldn't be allowed to vote if you had your way?
"tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"
Those excellent debating skills are shining through again I see
Speaking of Erith:
"It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith
I wouldn't personally benefit from a society based on inequality any more than the average voter. I just happen to (used to?) value such a society more than the average voter.
However suppose you are right, that my self interests do conflict with wider society as determined by certain criteria. As long as people who are excluded by such criteria have the right to leave said state or seceede I have no problem with being disenfranchised.
However my implicit conention is that most people thus disenfranchised would not leave such a state because they would enjoy a higher standard of living and would truly be better off in a unequal society than in one based on equality, since a equal based society would eventually be deserted or would strifle those who make extraordinary or above average contributions and would grow stagnant and controling.
Last edited by Heraclitus; December 13, 2010 at 09:21.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
u value ur self interests, they value their own.
That is what self interests r
why do u try 2 force equality and freedom of choice on everyone in this regard?As long as people who are excluded by such criteria have the right to leave said state or seceede I have no problem with being disenfranchised.
If someone sees that society is best served by enslaving people, then it's just peachy...
because disenfranchized groups have always been treated so well!However my implicit conention is that most people thus disenfranchised would not leave such a state because they would enjoy a higher standard of living and would truly be better off in a unequal society than in one based on equality, since a equal based society would eventually be deserted or would strifle those who make extraordinary or above average contributions and would grow stagnant and controling.
"tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"
And enfranchized groups have never ended up abused!
Please mock me a bit less with your spelling, Its hard to try and respond to your comments seriusly otherwise.
Modern man calls walking more quickly in the same direction down the same road “change.”
The world, in the last three hundred years, has not changed except in that sense.
The simple suggestion of a true change scandalizes and terrifies modern man. -Nicolás Gómez Dávila
It might also be claimed by Croatian Serbs who were on the wrong end of Operation Storm that the Croatian Government were trying to create an ethnically pure Croatia. Greater Croatia, even, if the aspirations to include Croatian parts of Bosnia are taken seriously.Cort - tell it to me when I was shelled actively for weeks, the Serbs were 1km from my house, and the territory was occupied for 4 years afterwards... and that was in Croatia, 400km from Belgrade, actually about 40km from Slovenian border... not to mention 100k+ dead in Bosnia, or what later went on in Kosovo... even Slovenians had 10 day war in the beginning but it was too hard to wage a proxy war with Croatia standing in the middle...
I thought people were well past that misinformation 10-20 years after
I'm not suggesting all this, however.
My original point was to refute the suggestion above that SM wanted to turn Yugoslavia (no reference was made to Krajina, for example) as a whole into a 'Greater Serbia'. Countless years of trial at The Hague before his death got nowhere near proving any such allegation.
Not really, I'd hate to be on an even level with the riff raff...
Speaking of Erith:
"It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith
im on a numeric keypad on a cellphone. Just b glad im n0t pro at this yet.
"tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"
Should get a proper modern phone then
Speaking of Erith:
"It's not twinned with anywhere, but it does have a suicide pact with Dagenham" - Linda Smith
What makes you think that a minority has a long term interest in the welfare of a country and a majority doesn't?
Edit: I see that I didn't read your clarification. I will ask another question, why is the long term welfare of a country more important than the welfare of people?
Last edited by Kidicious; December 13, 2010 at 18:55.
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
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