Rugby - The Game They Play In Heaven II

Havak · April 15, 2012, 06:36

But it does keep us amused Finbar so please do persist.

Finbar has put his finger on it somewhat. Apples and pears. I would add that I belive that the only indicator of comparative international quality is international results. Arguing an international side is better than it's results because it's club sides are doing rather well is an associative cognitive leap that I simply do not follow.

Additionally the England team is pretty much made of foreigners

Could you name your 'foreigners' please. I think you may be a year or four too late with this assertion. I can identify eight out of thirty three in the EPS who were not born in England (and I'm not allowing here for the ones amongst the eight who have English parents which, in international law, makes them English if they so wish).

I didn't realise however that Barritt was of Bok origin (like Botha and Stevens) until your assertion allowed me to discover it. Saracens really are a Bok franchise arern't they? Super 16 their next stop?

I do find Simpson interesting as well. Born in OZ to a Kiwi mum and English dad? We should have known he wasn't test quality (or NZ/OZ would surely have snapped him up first).

Although there was a tussle over Ben Morgan it is worth noting the boy was born in Bristol. Wales only got a sniff because of his residency from playing for Llanelli.

finbar · April 15, 2012, 07:39

Joe Simpson - no hair, alabaster complexion - wouldn't have lasted 10 minutes in an Australian summer. On the other other hand, bald and pasty-faced, he had to be a Pom.

The only really interesting thing about a country's international -v- club performances is the often inexplicable disparity.

Barritt is definitely a Bok. As I've observed before, S. Hape with a worse accent.

Interesting to note that both Flutey and Hape - wrapping themselves in whatever the England flag is these days for England selection - have both now shed the flag to set up elsewhere. Well, Hape at home, admittedly. Home being New Zealand. Not England.

kittenOFchaos · April 15, 2012, 10:16

Originally Posted by Havak

Could you name your 'foreigners' please. I think you may be a year or four too late with this assertion. I can identify eight out of thirty three in the EPS who were not born in England (and I'm not allowing here for the ones amongst the eight who have English parents which, in international law, makes them English if they so wish).

Finbar does make a good point as regarding Wales.

Havak, I'm pretty sure I was on the boat last year and have stayed on for the voyage. Whilst it is flattering these players want to play for England, it misses the point of having different Nationalities. We may as well have a British Commonwealth team - I fancy that would be pretty good.

It is remarkable we can get some out and out South Africans playing for England at the expense of home-grown talent.

1. Alex Corbisiero - born in New York City. Lived there till he was 5. English mother. I have no issues with him playing for England as he has an English mum and played all his rugby in England.
2. Brad Barritt - Born in Durban, Souith Africa. Played for the 'Emerging Springboks' before settling for England. This chap is South African through and through and played the system.
3. Dylan Hartley - Born in New Zealand and lived there for 14 years.
4. Manu Samoa Tuilagi - The clue is in the name.
5. Mouritz Botha - Another through and through South African.
6. Matt Stevens - South African through and through and one not playing very well atm.

So currently, 5 players that aren't home-grown in an 'Elite Squad' of 30. I'd say that apart from Matt Stevens, those players are in the first 15.

The fact is that Stevens, Botha, Hartley and Barritt know they aren't good enough to get into the squads for NZ/South Africa and England RFU is very happy to have them as they don't rate the home grown alternatives. Manu I'm more sympathetic towards as his family are over here and appear to be settling permenantly - but it could be claimed that financially it is a far better move for him. Flutey and Hape's selection last year just made a mockery of the current setup.

finbar · April 15, 2012, 11:41

Hartley's Gran is English. You'd want to keep your fingers away from the old bint's mouth, too, as well as not offer her an eye into which she can insert one of her gnarled digits.

I think the more pertinent and interesting tack in this whole argument is the lack of English born-and-bred talent. There's some starting to emerge, some very promising talent, but there has been a cycle of pretty ordinary standards, hence the preponderance of mainly Boks.

Havak · April 17, 2012, 11:01

The EPS totals 33 players and you have missed a couple of the non-natively born players kOc.

Manu's family have substantially been here since the 1990s when the eldest brother arrived in the junior code before switching to Union. He was at school her from 13 I think? Manu I really have no problem with- he has made a choice (he could have jumped for an NZ school scholarship I am sure?).

Flags of convenience I do agree with you on - all the Boks and the Hape's and Fluteys.

With regards to Cocaine Matt hasn't he got an English parent? Not that I want him in the EPS really.

I never picked you up on the excuse you used for Scotland though - isn't the population of Wales about the same as Scotland? They don't seem to import players quite as much (though they very much do do so).

Also I do disagree with you on Exeter. They are aboput 20 points above their real placing as they benefitted hugely from the international windows. I hope Saints make the spot because, frankly, they deserve it far more.

So Redpath has gone. No real surpise there chaps?

finbar · April 17, 2012, 11:30

Well, he's off to Glaws, Glaws playing Sale on the weekend, aren't they? All a bit potentially messy. He's built a nice backline at Glaws but you could never accuse him of building a winning combination. Far too many losses against teams they should have humped with that talent. Glaws' story for many years, what?

kittenOFchaos · April 17, 2012, 12:37

Originally Posted by Havak

I never picked you up on the excuse you used for Scotland though - isn't the population of Wales about the same as Scotland? They don't seem to import players quite as much (though they very much do do so).

I was quite clear - to quote myself: "Scotland has of a small pool of professional players."

The Welsh remain pretty fanatical about rugby, but in Scotland we waste our time with football. Rugby is a minority sport. More Italians play rugby than Scots.

finbar · April 17, 2012, 12:40

Originally Posted by kittenOFchaos

More Italians play rugby than Scots.

And just about as well.

kittenOFchaos · April 17, 2012, 12:43

Originally Posted by finbar

And just about as well.

Once Italy get someone who can place kick they'll start winning games. We're quite generous to the Italian coaches, but none of those fools actually trained up a place kicker of any worth. Likewise Scotland needs to get backs that can thump the ball and make decent clearing kicks. So many of our problems come from an inability to clear our lines.

finbar · April 17, 2012, 12:58

Funnily enough, the Wallabies have struggled for a consistent goal kicker since - heck, I can't remember when. It's a skill that can be taught and practised until the proverbial milkers come home but if you haven't got the natural talent, forget it. Nick Mallett put a massive amount of time and effort into Mirco B and he - Mirco - is no better or worse than the recent Wallaby kickers.

Havak · April 18, 2012, 06:40

He's off to Sale Finbar - bit of a typo by you there? Interesting choice for the reason you mention. Glaws have all the same problems they had under Dean Ryan still.

You were very clear kOc. I was having a bit of fun with you given your repeated (incorrect) attempts to assert that the English EPS is made up almost entirely of foreigners.

The SRU actually make the RFU look extremely Professional in how they run and promote the game - Rugby could be far more popular in Scotland if it was better organised.

Of course kissball it utterly dominant in England too - Rugby still attracts those who like a thinking persons game.

As for the Scottish national side I think many of it's problems come from a focus on 'form' over 'function'. They often play some very nice looking rugby through the hands without ever actually getting over the game line (and when they do often immediately turning over ball). It's becoming a running joke that they flatter to deceive and frankly they finished where they deserved in the 6N. On this thread we can speculate that they should have beaten England or should have beaten Italy all you like - the fact is they didn't because they don't take their chances and cannot close games out. Kicking is only part of the problem there I would suggest. Turnip is another part I suspect.

finbar · April 18, 2012, 06:57

How can he be off to Glaws from Glaws? D'oh! Anyway, I read somewhere that there's mention on a Glaws website that Dean Ryan might return. Can't imagine it myself. Apart from p*ssing off the supporters last time, what has he learned about coaching in the meantime? There's a cultural problem around that team - they don't know how to win when it counts - and it's been there for a long time. New broom time.

I agree about Scotland. Tons of possession for nowhere near enough results. Racking up the passing stats going sideways behind the gain line, a drift defence only having to drift and wait, tackled on the gain line, end of attack. They need an attack coach to intill some guile, some deception - changes of angle, dummy runners, whatever, anything that might actually give a defence pause for thought. Italy has much the same problem. The difference is that Scotland actually has a couple of players who could manage it.

Enough said about Turnip.

Havak · April 18, 2012, 08:37

Glaws can put in a bid for Lancaster after the RSA tour as he will probably be available. Two pointless games against barbarian bok sides have been added to the tour.

I will persist in calling the gain line the game line. After several decades of so doing I am a lost cause on that one.

finbar · April 18, 2012, 08:53

Game line - gain line - advantage line.

Tomayto, tomato.

Which reminds me of one of the great cartoons - as in print, not Tom & Jerry - I saw a number of years ago. A composer slumped at his piano after an all-night composing stint, exhausted, unshaven, hundreds of screwed up bits of paper on the floor as evidence of his efforts. His missus, just out of bed, in dressing gown and curlers, is looking at a piece of paper on the piano, the end result of his marathon slog.

She's saying: "You took all night to write 'You say tomato, I say tomato'?"

Havak · April 19, 2012, 06:52

A classic, with that exquisite sub-text regarding the female psyche.

Big Alesani off to Japan as predicted a few months ago. It's the reason they signed the young winger from Warriors. Been a great servant of the club so wish him well.

finbar · April 20, 2012, 02:01

The question is, does young Miles Benjamin use his arms in a tackle? Hopefully so because it would be nice to see a Leicester winger do so for a change.

Havak · April 20, 2012, 06:18

Yes because the Argentinian seems to forget to as well doesn't he?

finbar · April 21, 2012, 03:13

Cripes, Sarries -v- Newcastle must have been a thrill-a-minute affair chockers with scintillating rugby. Still, a losing bonus point for the Falcons aids their cause.

finbar · April 21, 2012, 12:37

Cracking game between the two best teams in the comp by a country mile. Quins had more options most of the day but just lacked the Leicester battlehardness. Plus a couple of shoddy defensive efforts in the second half let them down. Allen was outstanding, MOTM for me, and he has to be given a chance to prove whether he can do it at a higher level. JTH is only a battering ram. Plus his defensive error was poor. Flood picked up MOTM, but Evans showed up his limitations as a quality 10. Evans runs a game, Flood reacts to what's in front of him. Does it well, but that's not running a game.

Havak · April 21, 2012, 15:55

I sat thinking as I watched that I doubt any other side in the division could have beaten Quins today. Both sides do seem to be in very good nick.

So we face the old enemy Baaarf at home in the last round with a chance of topping the table. Hard to believe given how the season started.

And some really tasty winner-takes-all fixtures in the last round too - Wasps v Falcons (good luck Falcons) and Sarries v Exeter (can both sides lose?)

One expects Saints to wallop Warriors at home so it's a big ask for Exeter. Sarries are dour and boring and negative but they can aqueeze the life out of you.

It is worth noting administration would send Wasps down regardless. To which I make no comment.

finbar · April 22, 2012, 02:18

Last I heard, the teams in contention for promotion lacked the requisite ground facilities for promotion. I must have another look.

The surprise for me yesterday was the improvement in the Quins' front row. The hooker's barely out of nappies and Marler was more than holding his own. He's 21, great in the loose, if he can keep improving his scrummaging he's a nice prospect.

finbar · April 22, 2012, 06:46

Oh, and congrats to Sale for just about sealing a HC spot. Barring Bath beating Leicester next week, I think. As for Glaws - where to from here?

kittenOFchaos · April 22, 2012, 08:34

I did really well predicting results this weekend.

Got a small amount from getting all the Super 15 correct. My larger accumulator of 13 results didn't come off as Toulon drew with Castres - everything else was right and my wallet was about to get 1300 pounds heavier. God, if I had predicted that draw, it'd have been worth £10,000s.

I've one accumulator still live - 9 correct results so far, just 3 more to come in. Fingers crossed!

I'm needing Northampton to beat Exeter, Glasgow to beat Treviso and Edinburgh to beat the Cardiff Blues. Given Edinburgh and Glasgow are playing away, it is a tough ask, but the odds looked good. We'll see. Edit: At half-time now and it isn't looking good. I've taken a look at Edinburgh's teamsheet - and they've sent their second team down to Cardiff - damn.

In other news - a 5 week ban following this so-called 'tip-tackle': http://www.rugbydump.com/2012/03/243...kle-on-coetzee
My own view is that it was an excellent tackle. The disciplinary panels are bringing the game into disrepute.

finbar · April 22, 2012, 10:21

He got the five weeks because of a previous conviction. The yellow card in this instance was for lifting him beyond the horizontal and driving him. Yesterday, Wayne Barnes handled a lifting tackle very well. The lifting player placed the lifted player back down as the law requires. Not even a penalty.

kittenOFchaos · April 22, 2012, 10:29

I have no problem with the yellow - in real time it is hard for referees/touch judges to tell exactly what happened. What gets me is that the video showed that the head wasn't driven into the ground and the no.6 play-acted.

kittenOFchaos · April 22, 2012, 10:33

Well, Edinburgh have surrendered nearly with 20 minutes still to go. Damn. I needed to know the team list for this one. Edinburgh are clearly marshalling their resources for the Heineken Cup.

finbar · April 22, 2012, 10:37

Originally Posted by kittenOFchaos

I have no problem with the yellow - in real time it is hard for referees/touch judges to tell exactly what happened. What gets me is that the video showed that the head wasn't driven into the ground and the no.6 play-acted.

Yes he did, but it didn't affect the card. It was always a yellow. Digby lifted him beyond the horizontal, should have put him down again instead of driving him backwards.

Havak · April 23, 2012, 03:58

Which is what the law requires - so the yellow cannot be argued against.

I noted a few things about Quins on watching the game a second time. Their players constantly mob the referee trying to influence decisions. This brings the game into disrepute for me - get your players in line Robshaw!

They have caught the Saracens/Sale/Wasps disease of using stadium announcements as a weapon - a concerto for each home score, silence for opposition scores and, shall we say, very strategically timed announcments (including during Toby's run ups on more than one occassion). And shame on the crowd - repeatedly booing both referee and the away team. It is a decade since I last went to a match at the Stoop but they were never so rude back then. Football behaviour is infesting my beloved game and I do not like it!

(I have drunk at the Stoop more recently than a decade ago given it's proximity to Tigers second home but of course there weren't many Quins folks around as they were never our opponents).

Championship promotion is hard to follow now they too have a stupid play off system. Bristol topped the regular table by seven clears points but now eight teams are involved in a pool system (!). It looks like coming down to Bristol v Bedford but I have to confess ignorance as to the current facilities of either. However even if they only have a cow shed and someone's back garden they should be allowed up if Wasps finish bottom of the pile.

finbar · April 23, 2012, 04:15

Just about every team is guilty of swamping the ref these days. It's crept in over the last year or so. Not sure how you stop it, though.

I know that Bedford's facilities don't make the grade. Presumably Bristol's still do, having been good enough for the Premiership a couple of years ago.

Havak · April 23, 2012, 04:58

You stop it with penalities followed by ten metres followed by yellow cards, two of which make a red. That gives players plenty of chances to alter their behaviour. It will not happen of course - because it ruins the game as a spectacle.

I've noticed all team chomp more at the referee, Tigers players were doing so after he awarded penalties againats them, but some sides actively mob the official. Tigers are less guilty of that at the moment than some sides. Quins were diabolical for it last saturday.

The facilities stipulation does seem rather harsh. Driven by TV I suspect - some of the televised Championship games have truly looked like they were in a farmer's field.

So fingers crossed Wasps do blow it and go down wonder if we can grab Wade? It is a sign of the trouble they are in that I don't think we would want anyone else from their squad right now. Although personnally I would take Varndell back. I'm a sucker for spectacle (scoring tries as freely as he concedes them). That won't happen of course as he alledgedly fell out with Cockerill massively.