Beyond the Pit -Argument and Debate Thread

[The Capo]

Edit in by CyberShy:
This is the Argument and Debate thread for Beyond the Pit.
It's been made to keep official game organization from debates and discusion regarding rules etc.


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Original post by The Capo
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Okay, now I am completely confused as to what is going on. First of all, am I supposed to go first or after Greece this next turn now?

Next its pretty obvious and apparent WHY Cyber was so against the reload to begin with. That is really messed up Cyber, further you are an ******* for attempting to take advantage of an OOC allowance that I made simply because I felt some sympathy for you, luckily you got what was coming to you and you know what I am talking about. Just because I agreed to continue does not mean I am happy, Cyber got a HUGE advantage from the whole situation, he fooled everyone. I'm going to keep playing, but this is nonsense and a reload should have happened. I don't know why it never did.

Then you say "oh I won't move or upgrade to make up for the double move," but what you didn't say is that (either that's total bullshit) or you already did all the moving and upgraded you needed so it didn't matter. So I tell you that I won't attack because of it, again because I have some sympathy for you (and this is all OOC so there is a huge difference between this and my actions against him) I hope you guys pull the wool from over your eyes and realize how much of a lying ***** he is. I might be an ******* myself, but at least I don't hide it from you!

Anyway, what is supposed to be the turn order here?

[Robert Plomp]

Okay, now I am completely confused as to what is going on. First of all, am I supposed to go first or after Greece this next turn now?

You go first because I was foolish enough to draft a rifleman in Argos AFTER you and maya had played your turn, which effectively took away my 'first move' advantage


Capo capo, calm down.
I had done the upgrading and reinforcing 2 turns ago
Then I decided to pause the upgrade for 1 turn to give you a chance to keep up (since you lost a turn)

If you would not have lost a turn and I would not have paused all activitiet around Knossos, things would have been exactly the same.

Last turn I did not move any unit towards Knossos nor did I do any upgrade.
Seriously, I did do nothing wrong, nor did I get any 'huge advantage' or something.

If you believe otherwise, please explain it calmly.
I get the idea that you are shocked to find out my pretty well defended city of Knossos, but that has not been done by unfair behaviour. If you think different, please explain me what kind of behavior gave me an unfair advantage?

[Robert Plomp]

That is really messed up Cyber, further you are an ******* for attempting to take advantage of an OOC allowance that I made simply because I felt some sympathy for you, luckily you got what was coming to you and you know what I am talking about.

I seriously do not know!
Please explain it. Let's try to work it out before it becomes huge again.
I think there is a misunderstanding cause by the fact that you completely miscalculated how strong my defence army could grow in only 2 turns.

Cyber got a HUGE advantage from the whole situation, he fooled everyone. I'm going to keep playing, but this is nonsense and a reload should have happened.

Please explain how I got an advantage!

[Robert Plomp]

For the correct chronological order:

1635 Korea Declares war and moves 1 tile into Sparta (2 tiles from Knossos)
____ Sparta starts upgrading and moving reinforcements
1640 Sparta double moves his great engineer,
____ Sparta upgrades and moves reinforcements
____ Korea does not move (on purpose)
1645 Sparta moves back the GE so that Korea can grab it
____ Sparta moves reinforcements
____ Korea moves army 1 tile next to Knossos
____ Korea keeps the GE alife and continues peace negotiations
1650 Sparta deliberately does not upgrade armies nor moves forces to Knossos
____ Sparta waits till at least half of the turn is over and uses his GE for a GA
____ Korea moves his armies 1 tile away from Knossos, now it is 2 tiles away from Knossos
1655 .............

[The Capo]

I did explain calmly, just because I am cursing doesn't mean I am not calm. I curse all the time. But I can't sit here and do this right now, I'll do it when I get home.

[Pitboss Maya]

They were told about a weak Sparta that could easily be conquered

OOC: Yeah, before the Spartan player manipulated the turns so he could reinforce Knossos with a double move.

[Pitboss Russia]

Could we please keep all this OOC **** on the organisation thread!

OOC: Yeah, before the Spartan player manipulated the turns so he could reinforce Knossos with a double move.

[Pitboss Maya]

For the correct chronological order:

What the hell is this? If anything this proves Capo's point. Did you think by posting this people would just look at it and say, "oh well he is posting it so there must not be anything wrong here."

It is quite clear from what you posted that you already had your reinforcements completely in place by 1945... hence, not moving anything in 1950 is irrelevant.

If things had gone as they should have Korea would have been able to attack Knossos in 1645 before you were able to legally play that turn. You would have only had 1635 and 1640 to reinforce.

Since you manipulated the hell out of things to gain an advantage, you had 1635, 1640, 1645 to reinforce and upgrade. 1645 was a key year because had you not CHEATED AS NOTED BY 3 INDEPENDENT JUDGES, Korea would have been able to attack Knossos before you were allowed to play that turn. Considering you obtained railroad only in 1640, this is a big deal.

Then you go and use your GE anyway, even though the judges agreed you should loose it for double moving.

Your a cheat Cyber. You look at these OOC rule debates like they are some sort of contest of who is more clever... which they are not. You are not sly or smart for manipulating this to your advantage. Your just a cheat. And what makes matters worse is that as the host you have the final say regarding reloads... even though your rule says the turn should have been reloaded.

You may have fooled the masses, who are probably tired of this whole deal and are not really paying attention anymore... but you didn't fool me. I knew EXACTLY what you were doing from the very beginning. In fact, at the beginning of this game I knew you would pull this crap. I even wrote about it, which was then deleted.

Well, I'm not standing for it. One of three things is going to happen...

1. The turn gets reloaded to 1635 with Korea moving first as it should have several days ago.

2. I draft and slave my nation down to size 1 cities just to put Greece as far behind as I can before quitting the game.

3. I just outright quit, because frankly, I'm tired of spending an hour a night pointing out your sneaky crap to a bunch of people who don't really care because it doesn't affect them directly, but a reload would. Everyone should be aware that this will happen to them if they ever find themselves at odds with this host. I called it near the start of the game, and sure enough it happened almost EXACTLY like I predicted.

I hate to pull the "I'm going to quit" card, and I'm sure alot of people wouldn't care anyway, but this is TOTAL BULL$HIT. If you were not the host and thus in control of the reload button none of this would have happened. You are using your position of control to save yourself, and it is WRONG. I'm not dealing with this anymore, and regardless of what happens I will NEVER play with you again, host or not.

[The Capo]

I concur with the Maya.

The masses do not make right. Honestly this has been a screwjob the entire time. Everything has been handled incorrectly, I tried to reason with you and even allow you certain opportunities simply because of the heinous situation and even then you take advantage.

You offered a peace deal, which I tried to negotiate, and in that negotiation you reneged on everything you promised OOC. You clearly took advantage of a double move, and you are still trying to paint yourself as the "patron saint" of double moves. There were no ramifications for your double move what-so-ever. All of the rest of the players are impatient over something you yourself created, and yet I am the one who is villainized. So be it.

This needs to get fixed, right now. I have all of the rules on my side and I demand a proper assessment.

[The Capo]

The fact of the matter is we knew you would have MGs in a few turns, we attacked you thusly and now you are attempting to cheat. This is even WORSE in a diplogame because it relies on true strategy over simply game-mechanic manipulation. This is horrendous, and however you look at it is a horrible occurance for any future diplogames.

[The Capo]

No, there have been too many violations of the rules by the host. Even when his enemies tried to help him out by offering favorable positions he continued his ways. This is the WORST diplogame I have ever been in, and I've been in a lot more than most of you have. These acts alone ruin the entire game, and if you people don't realize it I apologize. There is NO EXCUSE for this type of larceny.

[Robert Plomp]

My last reply to this, I'm totally done with this.

No, there have been too many violations of the rules by the host.

There has been ONE violation according to the judges: double moving my GE, which has been fixed.

The reasons for your failed invasion were the fake peace talkings I started in 1645
We were having peace talkings in 1645/1650 which I ended late 1650.
If things would have been without my double move we would've had the peace talkings in 1640/1645 and woud I still have ended these peace talkigns late in 1645 long after the 6 hours started.

1. It was my fake attempt to make peace by acting as if I wanted to hand over many cities that made you guys pause your invasion.
2. I have handed over the GE as 2 of the 3 judges told me to. Korea just decided to not take it (which he would've most probably done as well in 1640) but use it as a tool in harsh peace negotiations.

And The Capo would not have a chance with the army I had in early 1645 (before I moved) either. There were 2 machine gunners and 2 riflemen. Those Machine Gunners were your bane since you have no chance against 2 machine gunners, immune to siege weapons, with +100% culture defence among all other kinds of defence.

I have not deliberately done any ooc things to try to cheat or get exploits, etc. First you guys borderlined a betrayal which was most probably the hugest ever in diplogaming. Then you could take advantage of a legal exploit. Now you are unhappy because I fake-peace talked to you guys. (which is an invention of the both of you)

C'mon guys, wage your war and stop the crap.
I will not directly debate this issue with the both of you guys. If needed i'll answer questions of Ozzy.
I'm not interested in another fight.

[Robert Plomp]

Maya: 2. I draft and slave my nation down to size 1 cities just to put Greece as far behind as I can before quitting the game.

You had the intention to quit the game after you had destroyed your own and my civilization? Geeeeez.

[Robert Plomp]

You know what, Capo: move your army next to my city (except the 2nd army of course)
I'll then remove all armies from it that were putted in it after 1645 has started.
You can then attack and 'fix' things again.

This is the situation as it would've been and you would not have accepted to start peace negotiations:


Move your armies in this position and I'll do the same, so you can have your ball.

[Robert Plomp]

Ok, since The Capo is again about to miss his turn I have saved and stopped the game.
The Capo: tell me when you are ready to play your turn. There are 50 minutes left.

We really cannot continue to hijack this game for the other 14 not-involved players.
Please accept my offer to attack my city with '1645 pre-Sparta-move' defence.

I think that I am too generous, but I just want to end all problems and continue this game.
I hope that you want to believe that I have not on purpose tried to screw things up or cheat or whatever. I am totally cooperative to work along with you where you think that I have done unfair things.

Just one question to you: did you and Maya plan the pre-war double move ahead, including discussing if it would be within the rules or not? And did the both of you then conclude that it was a legal-exploit (like Maya has said a few times AFTER all things happened). I'm curious to that.

[Pitboss Rome]

I accept the reasons for temporarily pausing the game - we need to avoid getting into the place again of arguments about reloads.

I must admit I don't really understand the problem now.
There was the

• original allegation of foul play in relation to the cease-fire. This was shown to be false - in that there was no foul play, just an unusual game-mechanic - but we reloaded, twice, to get it right. Issue closed.
• There was the double-move claim, which was shown to be true according to the written rules, and the judgement of the judges was implemented. Issue closed.
• I can't get to the bottom of what written rule is meant to have been broken now.

But I must admit I am so fed up with it all, I can't be bothered trying to re-read ever post and piece together the contortions. I can see lots of anger and distrust, lots of frustration at how things have worked out, lots of attempts to go back to the issues which have already been judged on, lots of trickery, ruses and surprises. But since the judges judged on the last problem - what written rule has been broken and by whom? (or is the claim that the judgmenet wasn't followed?).

If Capo wants to accept the offer which CS has made about moving troops in and out of the city, fine - not for me to comment.

Otherwise, I suggest we do the same as before. Is it reasonable for Maya and Capo to query whether the case gets fairly heard because CS is one of the parties, so Ozzy, please sort some judgements quickly. Leave the game paused until they report (please within 24 hours if not sooner) and lets get back to civ.

I also am in the middle of a war.

[MMC]

I am one of the few who could benefit from a reload (and I don't mean leveling the playing field, I mean a noticeable gain), yet I'd have to say no to reloading. There are several players (such as Rome and Russia) who would NOT benefit from a reload. Especially one that jumps back by several turns.

I believe the current claim isn't that another rule was broken, nor that the judgment wasn't followed, but that Cyber used the confusion of the reload to his own advantage. In my opinion, the best compromise would be for Cyber to stick to the concessions he has already agreed to make (including regarding the GE, so no Golden Age), and also that someone else host, at least for a short time. Perhaps it's not such a good idea to let a Crazy Dutchman™ (*) loose with the admin controls at the moment.

(*) We loves ya really, Cyber

[Robert Plomp]

but that Cyber used the confusion of the reload to his own advantage.

No, I have not.
But I have learned from experiences that it is impossible to defend myself against such claims.

What I have done is starting fake peace-negotiations with Maya/Korea, in which I promised them that much that they were both interested. They even wanted to delay the war 1 turn and keep the GE in hostage, to use it in these peace negotiations.

Then I stopped these negotiations when I was ready (and the judge judgements had been fullfilled, ie: offering GE to Korea (who kept it in hostage), declared full war (See fancy video I shot of myself as Orestes that nobody of you cared to comment on ) and they started to panic. (and went back to their usual strategy: "If I can't win I'll blame CyberShy for cheating") (3rd time: 1st was map-cheating, which didn't happen, then there was the false cease-fire, which was a game bug, and now there is this 'CyberShy just cheat in some way' which is again not true. The only time they were 'right' was when they used a 'legal double move exploit' (words of Maya) that was acceptable to the very literal strict letter of the rules. (but against the spirit!).

Conclusion: when they pull false peace negotiations on me (in a far far far more betrayal way!) all is fine. When I return it tad bit on them heaven is too small.

But I have an overhand so big right now b/c of Maya mistakes and Korea's uberweakness that I am willing to give in for a 2nd time* and move half my army out of knossos to give Korea a chance to lose it's entire army gainst half my army. Fine with me.

*1st time was when I did not move/upgrade at all around knossos for 1 turn to give Korea a chance to keep up.

And yes, I know that I can type as much detailled explanations as possible, I will always come out of bad guy for some way.
I don't know, maybe it's better to become a ultra-nutscase and a borderliner hate-player as well.

[Pitboss Khmer]

I'm happy to go back to the turn before Korea declared war so that Maya and Korea can play out their original strategy before this circus started. It is the only pure answer. Otherwise the game is gradually dieing and we have all put too much into it for that to happen.

The rest of us get disadvantaged but the game recovers with a pre-war reload..

[Pitboss Khmer]

Cyber, I think you trying to out diplo Korea with false peace proposals is tainted by the OOC circumstances where Korea and Maya and Sparta started to contrive things and bring in judges to work out a fair balance etc etc. I'm sorry if I also encouraged a false history to develop.

Please don't debate each point of every post.

Just kill it and set up the correct reload.

Do the right thing and go back to that point.

[Pitboss Portugal]

Game should be reloaded CyberShy. I am tired of this broken record already!

[Robert Plomp]

reload means:
*Korea and maya will not fall again for fake peace negotions
*maya will not make same mistakes again.
*i will lose my GA

Thus forget it.
If you all continue listening to korea maya crap i stop this game forever. I am done giving in to these two sore losers

[The Capo]

This has nothing to do with the fact that I (or we) are "sore losers." I think everyone here knows well that I am quite used to losing. I think you personally are so blinded by your own desire to "win" this game, in whatever way you think you will, that you have fooled yourself into thinking what you have done so far is right.

You have basically, by your own actions, attempted to make me look bad when all of my requests have been perfectly legitimate, and to make matters worse they all fall in line with RULES THAT YOU WROTE YOURSELF. You let an in-game plot damage the game in an OOC fashion, maybe I reacted in a bad way to it, but I was angry that you have been doing this, I was angry that I was getting bad responses (even though I was right the entire time) and then when I attempted to try and bring things back to a normal level (i.e. giving you a turn to organize yourself and giving you a way to continue our war and save your GE) you took full advantage. The difference was our plot against you was an in-game/in-character ploy. You taking advantage of me (for a second, no wait, third, or is that fourth time?) was completely done OOC and in extremely poor taste. If you can't realize the difference between manipulating someone in-game, and manipulating the game itself as well as another player OOC then you have NO BUSINESS WHAT-SO-EVER HOSTING A GAME EVER AGAIN.

You have basically taken advantage to the point that our plan is basically ruined, and now you are so angry and resentful that there is never going to be a purely "normal" end to this situation.

And to respond to your issues with a reload (which are all personal towards Greece alone, and clearly greedy on his part);

1) "Korea and Maya will not fall again for the same peace mistakes" - of course we wouldn't, the only reason we entertained it was because we felt bad for you and wanted the game to return to normal again. Hell, we didn't even actually 'fall for it', I denied it and sent you a scathing letter demanding more of your cities (why don't you ever admit the FULL truth in your posts here?), it was only after that that I sent you an OOC PM telling you that if you needed a turn of no-war I would abide by it so long as you agreed to move your GE to the hills between Maya and Korea where he won't be killed. I said if you agreed I wouldn't kill him on the turn I was going to and you AGREED. Then you went against this and snuck him away. You are a lying ****. Nobody fell for anything, we just actually thought you were a better person despite your constant cheating and attempts at manipulation.

2) "Maya will not make same mistakes again" - I actually don't know what you are referring to here, but okay.

3) "I will lose my GE" - Yeah, and you should have TWICE!

Now despite the fact that I have been wronged by you multiple times you are the one threatening to stop the whole game? That's ridiculous Cyber. There are 17 other players in the game and you are going to take it upon yourself to end it? At least Maya just said he'd quit, you are talking about stopping the game completely. Stop throwing a tantrum over a ****ing videogame. Its not a big deal man, its just a game. But you have to play by the rules, especially when you made them.

[Pitboss Portugal]

So what is the verdict here guys?

Reload and maybe set it on a shorter timer so we can catch up quicker maybe loss CS in the process?
Continue and loss Maya/Capo?
Start looking for new people?

What?

Having the game paused is resolving nothing and will definitely start pissing other people. And the majority didn't spend 8 months to come down to such an ending. One of the two sides will need to give in if this is to go somewhere! Too much testosterone....

[OzzyKP]

Fine... we vote.

Yes, reload to 1630.
Portugal
Khmer
Korea
Maya

No, don't reload, keep playing.
Funglish
Rome
Greece
Japan
Natives

Abstain.
Metalheads
Celts

[Robert Plomp]

So we make it a stupid vote instead of looking at what is going on here?

[Pitboss Portugal]

Looking at the situation what is there else we can do CyberShy?

All three threaten to leave the game, this is a dead end. Something has to give?

Sad thing is the 3 people will destroy it for 15 more, talk about poor form here. And i do not care who is responsible. We are over this, much has been said already +100 posts. Enough with it, lets move one and heal the wounds.

I personally hate reloads, but voted for one. Just so this s..t can end.

For the record you have never quit a game, unlike some of the other parties in this fight. So stick it out.

[Pitboss Rome]

It there is a vote, well fair enough I guess.

Genuinely though I would still appreciate someone explaining briefly what rule is claimed to have been broken.

Deceit, untrustworthiness, trickery, exploitation I can understand all of them, but they are not against the rules. The ruling previously was that while something was against the spirit, generally not accepted, seen as bad form etc., it wasn't against the written rules so it was a 'legal exploit' and no action would be taken.

The game was back on track 24 hours ago - people might not have been happy, but we were moving again and then ... well - what happened? What rule was broken?

[Robert Plomp]

perhaps you can look at the facts and at the way both 'groups' have been willing to cooperate. Or at how both have been trying to come with solutions. You can also look at how easy some of us have called 'cheater' to others. You can look at how some people tried to let this game work. Perhaps look at how often ie the maya have cheated in this game and how willing they were back then to cooperate.

If all of that doesn't help then I can only conclude that I must be very hated by all of you for reasons I don't know.

[Pitboss Japan]

I dont think the game should have been stopped especially if you are the one at war. let the game continue.