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Thread: Dale/Snoopy PatchMod (Bug-fixes and more)

  1. #241
    Flash
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    The reason I ask is Epic has 450 turns and a percentage of 200. So shouldn't Marathon with 900 turns have a percentage of 400?
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  2. #242
    snoopy369
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    You adjusted marathon 2x to adjust exploration rates or somesuch, I think. I don't think it had anything to do with immigration, which is the only thing I remember discussing 'growth' rates related to ...
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  3. #243
    Flash
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    Snoopy,

    Doesn't Growth rates equate to new population?
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  4. #244
    snoopy369
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    Growth rates affects an awful lot of things, actually. It's often used for the proxy of "gamespeedmultiplier", for things that don't have their own xml entry.
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  5. #245
    Zoetstofzoetje
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    I'm not sure if this is the right thread, or even the right forum. but i've found a couple of bugs i'd like to share:

    - I can't select on which screen I'd like to play Colonization. (I've a multi-monitor setup)
    - The city screen is messed up on my 1024x1280 resolution. The workers and buildings are located in apparently random places. Can send a picture on request.
    - I don't seem to be able to load partial loads? According to the civ-pedia, pressing shift should help, but it's inoperational here.
    - Converted natives/etc can be trained to whatever expertise and then used as free colonists as soldiers. It feels a bit like cheating.
    - I've set up a couple of games with more than 4 European nations (4 just isn't enough! In the real world, didn't the Portuguese, Danish, Scottish, Belgians, Italians, and Germans make (failed) efforts as well?) the issue being that you end up with same nation - same leader twice or thrice. The only difference there is the different colour. Only by manually editing leaders can this be prevented.
    - If you are both colonies from the same mother country, why can you attack each other? That should really upset the king or be impossible.
    - The automated citizen thing is really messed up. It makes wicked decisions if you don't restrict it. Like for example decide to cut trees even if the warehouse maximum has already been overcome. I'd like to see an option where I fix particular colonists into position and let the rest be dynamic.

  6. #246
    snoopy369
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    If you have a multi-monitor setup, as with almost any other game, you have two choices:

    * Play fullscreen on the 'primary' monitor
    * Play windowed and maximize it on whichever monitor you wish
    That's not a bug, it's pretty much just how it works.

    1024x1280 resolution is a really weird resolution, also (unless you mean 1280x1024 - wider than it is high, as normal) ... the engine may not be able to handle it (not sure). Not a bug that can be fixed, I suspect, if it is game-side.

    You have to hold down shift before you click - once you've clicked, hitting shift does no good.

    Dale changed natives to only be able to be educated (not trained in native towns), I believe; but in the scheme of things, if they spent the time to be educated by europeans, why not let them hold guns? It does take time after all, and slow down other educations later on - a reasonable tradeoff IMO.

    Play AoDII if you want more leaders You need a mod to allow more than 4 real leaders.

    If you are both colonies from the same mother country, you can attack each other because it's more interesting in the game that way... You do piss off the King if he has good relations with the other colony.

    Yeah, the automated citizen stuff is not so hot ... that may be one of the next things I look at, if Dale doesn't have better things for me to look into. AI is always a b**** to fix, unfortunately, but this may be one of the easier fixes.
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  7. #247
    Dale
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    Version 1.06b has been posted

    A minor update that includes all known bug fixes (patch 1.02) and resolves some minor problems with 1.05 (notably converts from missions).

  8. #248
    Finsch
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    Me and a friend just downloaded and installed the mod for the first time and wanted to give it a try in multiplayer.

    But in the lobby, no one can see any games. So no one can join anything.

    Any ideas why that is? Vanilla col works fine...

  9. #249
    gus_smedstad
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    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this yet, but after playing with the Patchmod it's clear that changing Treasures to occupy 6 slots is not good.

    Assuming you're playing at Normal speed, $2000 is a unusually valuable treasure. $2000 / 600 = $3.33 per unit, less than most raw materials. $500-$600 treasures are common, and you often get $100 treasures from wiping out Indian settlements. It's not even worth the time to pick that up if it fully occupies a Galleon.

    "Fixed at 1" is really the correct value. Even a $2000 treasure is on par with 100 units of Silver.

    - Gus

  10. #250
    snoopy369
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    Originally posted by Finsch
    Me and a friend just downloaded and installed the mod for the first time and wanted to give it a try in multiplayer.

    But in the lobby, no one can see any games. So no one can join anything.

    Any ideas why that is? Vanilla col works fine...
    Gamespy has always had difficulty working with mods, unfortunately. In particular, you must have identical setups in terms of where the files are located and which files you have. Even then, in my experience, it is not guaranteed to work properly.

    My recommendation: direct ip play. You can connect directly to your friend's computer, and it should work fine there. One of you needs to go to www.whatismyip.com (or similar) and find out your IP, then create a game, and the other connects to it at that IP.
    <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
    I like your SNOOPY POSTER! - While you Wait quote.

  11. #251
    snoopy369
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    Originally posted by gus_smedstad
    I'm surprised that no one has mentioned this yet, but after playing with the Patchmod it's clear that changing Treasures to occupy 6 slots is not good.

    Assuming you're playing at Normal speed, $2000 is a unusually valuable treasure. $2000 / 600 = $3.33 per unit, less than most raw materials. $500-$600 treasures are common, and you often get $100 treasures from wiping out Indian settlements. It's not even worth the time to pick that up if it fully occupies a Galleon.

    "Fixed at 1" is really the correct value. Even a $2000 treasure is on par with 100 units of Silver.

    - Gus
    Dale 'changed' it to match what Firaxis intended (the XML always indicated it took 6 slots, but the code to allow any unit to take any number of slots other than 1 was broken); he was fixing a bug, not making a balance change. You can always make a change in the XML (Civ4UnitInfo I believe) to cause the treasure to take up fewer slots, if you prefer that balance.

    I personally think it should take 6 - both consistency with Col1, and the economics don't work the way you think it works. Treasures are a large lump sum, and in addition to your current income. If you make enough income to keep galleons filled all of the time with 600 raw materials, then you're doing pretty darn well for yourself; the treasure should give more money to those who are doing less well money-wise. As such, it's basically a balancing factor in the game.

    If the galleon space is so valuable to you, let the King take his half and be happy
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  12. #252
    Durnil
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    Dale - Have you had a chance to look at the code I emailed you?

  13. #253
    Djboomingranny
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    Hi, great work on your patch. I miss the days of the original Colonization game, and your patch has allowed me to relive them

    anyway, you said "Unit Cycling Bug
    - Find and Fix this
    - NEED SAVES WHERE IT IS HAPPENING, please."

    so i can reproduce at least one of these unit cycling bugs (present in both the original game, and when using your patch)

    to replicate: Goto europe, get a guy, then double right click on him and hold the mouse. then left click on say dragoon or something. (then release both mouse buttons) now when you go back to your game you will see it no longer cycles. if you save and load your game you will see the "pioneer/soldier/dragoon etc..." windows back. so i suspect the code that closes this window doesn't finish when you hold the right mouse button or something.

    also, my feedback on your wicked patch:

    * i had an indian who wouldn't trade with me even though i had a +8 relationship with him, and i was giving him exactly what he wants (guns in this case) i checked and i was at peace with everyone. i had a screenshot but i have misplaced it. (this wasn't the .b version of your patch)

    * the nearly out of room messages appear even when you have a warehouse expansion. (and they are a bit spammy - perhaps you could make it show them once then rest for 10 turns or something?)

    * the resources required ones do the same spammy thing as above, the way i play is i have 1 town doing all the production, and wagons auto moving the goods there, and i get this message EVERY turn... :S perhaps you could again make it once every 10 turns?)

    * i was playing on the 3rd from bottom difficulty, i declaired WOI at about turn 200 (i had about 8 settlements and a large army), then the pc declaired at about 210 with 3 settlements and a puny army and somehow won their woi by around turn 237 (it said they made peace with their king, but perhaps this is normal) is it possible that the computers kings don't make large armys the way the humans ones do? i just thought this was a bit unfair that the ai seems to get a advantage here...

    * FEATURE REQUESTs: could you make it so that you can dispand your settlement as in col1? (it is gods will) and perhaps have a bonus or at least a message for circumnavigating the globe?

    Is it possible to make it more expensive to train criminals/servents/indians? eg have a +$100 cost for servents/indians when they graduate, and a +$200 cost for criminals? just an idea...

    Thanks,
    Daniel

  14. #254
    snoopy369
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    Thanks, Daniel - I'll see if I can replicate that issue. It's not necessarily fixable, unfortunately, as it may be in the EXE (not the DLL or python), but we can but try

    I was afraid of the spamminess of the messages... I don't really play the heavy wagon train strat, so I wasn't sure how annoying it would be. We'll think about what options we have in terms of messages; it's possible we'll add an option for it or something.

    No idea on the indian not trading with you, unfortunately... a save would of course help. Sometimes, though, the AI just does odd things... consider it personal quirks

    I don't think we'll add disbanding ... it's not something I consider good for the game, and i think Dale agrees with that. It was quite an exploit in Col1, and I see no reason to introduce that here. Be more careful with where you settle...

    I wonder if the circumnavigation code is still in there... i'll think about that one. It might be easy to re-enable (though on a non-round world, we'd have to add in a slightly different check regardless). Perhaps "discovery of the pacific ocean" or something. At some point I'd love to see a lot of those... not that I have the art talent to do the screens or anything Strictly programmer here...

    I think it is already more (time-)expensive to train criminals/natives. Time is not so different from money, after all...
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  15. #255
    Dale
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    Yeah, the lower the colonist class the longer it takes to educate them. I don't think an extra gold hit is required. the book and ink cost the same from the shop whether its a criminal or a colonist in school.

    Sometimes in diplomacy, they will take the "HissyFit" stance, which means no matter how friendly they are overall, they have cracked it at something. Don't expect them to agree to much when they have a hissy fit.

    I agree with Snoopy on disbanding colonies. I used to use it in Col1 to great advantage (exploit).

    "Finding the Pacific" would be simple. First "west European sea zone" triggers the event.
    Do we need a similar "Finding the Atlantic" for nations starting in the west (Russia, China)?

    Snoopy, I think we need to get Hexagonian involved, he's brilliant for that sort of art.

  16. #256
    Dale
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    I've been working on the AI today, specifically it's ability to buy an army from Europe, and to decide it's defenses. I've been able to tie it deeper into difficulty levels as well as significantly improve the army that the AI purchases from Europe.

    Screenshot attached shows an AI France at revolutionary level, with it's forming army. Not too shabby eh? Note the caravel is bringing a soldier and tools from Europe.

    Now here's the shock, it's turn 50!
    Attached Images Attached Images

  17. #257
    Dale
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    Originally posted by Djboomingranny
    Hi, great work on your patch. I miss the days of the original Colonization game, and your patch has allowed me to relive them

    anyway, you said "Unit Cycling Bug
    - Find and Fix this
    - NEED SAVES WHERE IT IS HAPPENING, please."

    so i can reproduce at least one of these unit cycling bugs (present in both the original game, and when using your patch)

    to replicate: Goto europe, get a guy, then double right click on him and hold the mouse. then left click on say dragoon or something. (then release both mouse buttons) now when you go back to your game you will see it no longer cycles. if you save and load your game you will see the "pioneer/soldier/dragoon etc..." windows back. so i suspect the code that closes this window doesn't finish when you hold the right mouse button or something.
    AWESOME! Replicated and found the bug. Definitely there as stated (definitely a code error).

    Now fixed, will be in the next version.

  18. #258
    snoopy369
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    It's not in the EXE? Excellent!!!
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  19. #259
    Zoetstofzoetje
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    You guys do some exceptionally good work. Two !

    I've been giving the game concept of Colonization some thought; what would make it even more interesting. I guess the need for resource micromanagement and the straightforward/linear approach to winning the game are the two dealbreakers for me. A particular strategy I use is a sure-fire bet for winning the game on most AI difficulty settings. I would however prefer to lose the game by being dynamically outsmarted rather than out-resource-bonused.

    It would be more fun and more difficult for me if every inch of land would have to be conquered or bought except the first one or two spots. I.o.w. if Natives would be everywhere and dynamic in their settlement. Perhaps they could even fight each other and attempt to win the game from their own paradigm (Unite the tribes to kick out the white invaders, if the frog is boiled too quickly?).

    Also perhaps making land more homogeneous in its yield, decreasing the amount of resource goodies, and making specialization much more difficult to come by. In particular if raw material elaboration would be only possible after building a building. That would lead to specialization and would make trade and diplomacy more meaningful. Did Spain just declare war on your Dutch motherland? King pops up, and urges you to attack their colonies - or else. Also, there goes that traded resource you liked!

    For some reason I seem to like this era of discovery in games. Other good games which touched upon it were 1602 and Conquest of the New World. Each has its own take on going from pioneering to self-sufficiency and its own particular charms. I just wish I still had as much time to play as back in the 90's

  20. #260
    gus_smedstad
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    Originally posted by snoopy369
    Dale 'changed' it to match what Firaxis intended (the XML always indicated it took 6 slots, but the code to allow any unit to take any number of slots other than 1 was broken); he was fixing a bug, not making a balance change.
    If that was what Firaxis "intended," that's what it would have been. It's fairly clear that they tested the 6 value and decided it was a Bad Idea. You think no one noticed that you could ship 6 treasures back at a time? How stupid do you think their QA department is?

    If you set the value in the XML to 1, you can pick up treasures in any transport, not just a Galleon. Apparently the XML value is also used to check whether it's legal to pick it up. Sure, you can force yourself to ignore this, but the AI won't.

    The logical conclusion to draw is that the hard-coded value of "1" was an intentional quick-and-dirty fix to a serious balance problem, and you've undone it. It is a significant balance change, because it renders most treasures neigh worthless, and makes constructing or buying a Galleon an iffy proposition.

    In declaring it "unimportant," you're glossing over most of the common cases. I mentioned the $2000 treasure as an extreme. Most of the time, the treasures are $800 or less. Sometimes as little as $100.

    It's actually quite common to get 3-4 $100 treasures from wiping out a tribe of Indians. This change makes this marginal reward worth 50% less, because it will never, ever make sense to tie up a Galleon for a 6-7 turn round trip just to get $100. Not even once, let alone 3-4 times.

    Regular treasures are often worth $800. From a short term perspective, if you have at least $800 worth of goods to send - 200 units of most raw materials in the early game, or 80 units of a finished good - it makes more sense to ship that than a treasure.

    Granted, you can take a significant opportunity cost hit, and ship the treasure instead. The other goods might be able to sit if you have enough storage space, i.e. if they aren't all of one type.

    Truth is, waiting to purchase a Galleon is often iffy. The opportunity cost for gathering $3000 in the early game is very high, because a few Expert Fishermen or Expert Farmers can make a huge difference in your economy's efficiency. A $1000 Caravel or $2000 Merchantman usually makes more sense if you need more shipping capacity.

    Until you get the +1 movement bonus, Merchantmen are more cost-effective than Galleons, because they're faster than Caravels or Galleons, and keep the same $500 per cargo space ratio.

    The main reason to push for a Galleon is the effective discount you get on the first one, to avoid the 50% tax on treasures. And you removed most of the reason for doing so.

    - Gus

  21. #261
    wodan11
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    I agree with all that, Zoet. There's way too much open space. Also, if you had to have excellent relations with the native AIs before they will agree to train you, that would improve gameplay as well as make it more realistic (don't just add the stricture, though, have the AI respond with a "We don't like you enough" or something).

  22. #262
    snoopy369
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    gus: If they'd intended it to be 1, they'd have changed it in the XML, as appropriate. Changing it so that an XML tag no longer works is a very poor way to change something like this - and thus, both Dale and I believe, accidental (probably something they had set temporarily hardcoded to test something and forgot to revert). Thus Dale fixed the bug (xml tag for 'size' not working). I don't agree with your reasoning for it being a balance issue (as noted earlier), and thus decline to address it in the balance patch at this time; it's certainly not high on the list even if I did agree, as treasures are frankly one of the more imbalancing things from a strategic standpoint, and I'm fine with them being not strategically beneficial. They're there for people who want the atmospheric element... and for those with really lousy starts, but by the time you have a significant amount of resources, they're not beneficial anymore. I'm fine with that.

    In any event, if it matters to you, just change it in the XML, as noted earlier. It's a very simple change.
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  23. #263
    gus_smedstad
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    I did change it in the XML. That's how I found out that if you change it to 1, you can transport treasures in Merchantmen and Caravels.

    By breaking this, you've effectively cut the value of all treasures in the game by 50%. Thus transforming this into the "unbalancing" mod, along with AoD II. Which is unfortunate, since it fixes some other things that aren't fixed elsewhere, like the random-start for ships.

    There are some treasures where the King pick-up isn't even an option. Such as ones where you get it from a small island that you never intend to colonize, and which would be a strategic blunder to colonize.

    Your earlier argument doesn't hold water, for reasons I've already outlined. You don't need to keep your Galleons filled with 600 units all the time for this change to screw treasures. All you need is 200 units, which is pretty common.

    But you've already stated that you're fine with hosing this element of the game, and relegating them to "color," so I guess there's no point in further discussion.

    - Gus

  24. #264
    Dale
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    gus you're obviously not playing the latest version because if you were you would notice there is now two XML tags for this issue. iRequiredTransportSize regulates how big the ship must be for that unit (6 in the case of treasure) and iBerthSize which regulates how many cargo holds the unit fills.

    You can stop whineing now.

    BTW, don't assume anything about the QA dept or how that tag was treated during the test phase. Because you are wrong.

  25. #265
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    Honestly, so many people overestimate the ablity of Firaxis to the extent it does get quite annoying after a while...
    You just wasted six ... no, seven ... seconds of your life reading this sentence.

  26. #266
    gus_smedstad
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    The version I was using had only iRequiredTransportSize, and no iBerthSize. I suppose I could add one at this point to see if it works, but I just realized I'm pretty much burned out on Colonization. Starting another game isn't very interesting. I was hoping the Patchmod would help, but it hasn't much.

    I understand the temptation to make design decisions purely for flavor reasons. Unfortunately, that way often leads to balance issues. A cost-benefit analysis of any design decision is vital to a good game.

    I'm sure you're aware that there are significant holes in the game's balance, even as "intended" by Firaxis. Otherwise you wouldn't have tripled the cost of horses. At $2-$3 to purchase, they render any colonial production of horses a waste of time. At $5-$7, Master Ranchers produce $20-$40 of horses a turn, which is still substandard compared to other professions. Of course, that neglects the value of the consumed food, which can reasonably be said to be as much as $3 per horse, so they're still iffy.

    Also obvious is how counterproductive it is to manufacture your own tools so long as you can trade with Europe, since ore is often par or more valuable than tools. Unfortunately fixing that would require re-evaluating the tool cost of pioneers and buildings, and the cost of guns as well.

    I think it's interesting that instead of trying to address the perfectly legitimate points I've brought up, you're being defensive and resorting to ad hominem attacks. I know that's typical for the Internet, but somehow I expected more.

    BTW, don't assume anything about the QA dept
    Since the assumption I made was that the Firaxis department was not stupid, what you're saying is that they were. Right?

    - Gus

  27. #267
    Dale
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    Actually gus, what you said:

    If that was what Firaxis "intended," that's what it would have been. It's fairly clear that they tested the 6 value and decided it was a Bad Idea. You think no one noticed that you could ship 6 treasures back at a time? How stupid do you think their QA department is?
    Is implying they ARE stupid. You also adamantly declare that they tested and decided it was a bad idea. Don't assume that it WAS tested at those values.

  28. #268
    The Rusty Gamer
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    It would have been good to have found a way to create a cargo size for treasure, depending on the size of the treasure.

    I would think a good balance size might be irequiredtransportsize=6 and irequiredberthsize=3. So you can carry two treasures in a galleon.
    Avoid COLONY RUSH on Galactic Civlizations II (both DL & DA) with my Slow Start Mod.
    Finding Civ 4: Colonization too easy? Try my Ten Colonies challenge.

  29. #269
    snoopy369
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    Honestly that's not a bad idea, and simple to implement ... I think the main issue is treasure just isn't that important for us to spend our (very limited, in my case) time on. Sure, small treasures are effectively worthless right now, but they're not that important anyway - if the value of the treasure is less than a single shipload, why do you care so much if you get it anyway?

    There are much more important balance issues we should be discussing, like the sending of the REF, education scaling, indian gold levels, etc. etc. ...
    <Reverend> IRC is just multiplayer notepad.
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  30. #270
    The Rusty Gamer
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    Did you know that when you build a dry dock and a shipyard that each of them is supposed to add another two fish to the sea squares (which, including a standard dock, should be +6) but it doesn't! It just sticks to the initial +2 from the dock.
    Avoid COLONY RUSH on Galactic Civlizations II (both DL & DA) with my Slow Start Mod.
    Finding Civ 4: Colonization too easy? Try my Ten Colonies challenge.

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