Reply With QuoteSometimes I believe that Bush played the "noble lie" of Leo Strauss; they lied on Iraq, but for a cause that they knew that were good(in their opinion).
What are the real reason why U.S.A. got into Iraq?
- Oil
- Free the Iraqi
- GeoStrategy
- Trickle-down (A working capitalist-democracy in Iraq will have a spill over effect)
- Conspiration Theory
- Al-Quaeda and Saddam Hussein
Thanks
bleh
Sometimes I believe that Bush played the "noble lie" of Leo Strauss; they lied on Iraq, but for a cause that they knew that were good(in their opinion).
bleh
Al-Quaeda and Saddam Hussein
Life is not measured by the number of breaths you take, but by the moments that take your breath away.
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He also hates Texans and Australians, he does diversify." ~ Braindead
Misguided economic stimulus package. Gotta buy those bombs somewhere. (I jest... but only part of me...)
"tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner"
stupidity
Thank you; but what is the rationale?Originally posted by MORON
stupidity
bleh
Originally posted by SlowwHand
Al-Quaeda
Saddam and bin Laden were enemies, and Saddam had ruthlessly repressed Al-Qaeda operations in Iraq. So are you saying we got into Iraq to make sure Al-Qaeda could operate and recruit there? 'Cause if so...Mission Accomplished!
"I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin
I would have to say it is 1 (Oil) and 3 (GeoStrategy).
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"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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@Rufus
But what about the fact that S. Hussein did wrote words from the Koran on the flag (I don't remember which year)? Sign was indicating to us that S. Hussein was slowly transforming itself as a defender of Islam.
Why would we want a new openly hostile islamic regime in the middle east?
Last edited by CrONoS; March 12, 2008 at 01:57.
bleh
Originally posted by Rufus T. Firefly
Saddam and bin Laden were enemies, and Saddam had ruthlessly repressed Al-Qaeda operations in Iraq.
Twenty days after the bombings, Uday Hussein (son of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein) praised Osama Bin Laden as "an Arab and Islamic hero."[5] Later, Richard A. Clarke, a top Clinton administration counterterrorism official, stated that one source reported that bin Laden had met with Iraqi officials who "may have offered him asylum" after the embassy bombings.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_U.S._embassy_bombings
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If Oil was the first or only reason:Originally posted by Wittlich
I would have to say it is 1 (Oil) and 3 (GeoStrategy).
Why invading a country for oil? Is there no other way to have oil? (buying company, investing, making business agreement, exchange oil for military equipment, development offshore platform in the north, etc..).
And who will and is controlling the oil field right now?
But if the first reason was GeoStrategic; oil can be an enjoyable benefit.
bleh
thanks, I wanted to point it out. But I wasn't able to find the quotes.Originally posted by DinoDoc
Twenty days after the bombings, Uday Hussein (son of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein) praised Osama Bin Laden as "an Arab and Islamic hero."[5] Later, Richard A. Clarke, a top Clinton administration counterterrorism official, stated that one source reported that bin Laden had met with Iraqi officials who "may have offered him asylum" after the embassy bombings.[6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_U.S._embassy_bombings
bleh
Hense my second choice of Geostrategy....but CrONoS' comment was posted towards Rufus T. Firefly, and he should answer it...
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"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
____________________________
People who say the rationale was "oil" have no idea what the theory even refers to. They are under the impression the whole war was fought to lower gas prices (which it didn't do at all) or make Dick Cheney rich (again, didn't do it). People just get BONERS when they can use one word to seem clever, when in reality they're losers.
Saddam went after Bush's dad (strike one), ignored UN resolutions (strike two), and clearly loved using chemical weapons to kill thousands of people based on 1991 (strike three).
Is that your own reason or the reason that you think Bush(and his counselor) had into their mind?Originally posted by Wiglaf
Saddam went after Bush's dad (strike one), ignored UN resolutions (strike two), and clearly loved using chemical weapons to kill thousands of people based on 1991 (strike three).
I don't want to know your reason why you thought it was a good idea to invade Iraq. But why a coalition was build in order to invade Iraq. I want to know, what's were the real reason why U.S.A. got into Iraq?
To this day I think the obviously false reason about WMD was more a Noble Lie, (à la Leo Strauss). Than the real reason.
bleh
Clearly Bush wanted to depose Saddam as soon as he took office , both because he was a mass murderer and tried to kill his father. The tool Woodward thinks this, but it is reasonable, and after 9/11 it became easier and even more justifiable to push the issue when Saddam ignored resolutions to disarm. WMD intelligence was there (Alwan, the Iraqi informant, helped sell this) and also plausible based on the kurd massacres of the 1990s.
When you have the CIA director saying it is a "slam dunk" case for WMD, clearly bush has been fed some misleading intelligence, but then again, the rationale was that the onus was on Saddam to prove he was clean. And he instead willfully obstructed inspectors.
I still believe he shipped weapons to Iran
1The answer to your first question is simple: The Oil Companies (monopoly). If they have control they set the price. If we have control, we set the price.Originally posted by CrONoS
If Oil was the first or only reason:
1. Why invading a country for oil? Is there no other way to have oil? (buying company, investing, making business agreement, exchange oil for military equipment, development offshore platform in the north, etc..). And who will and is controlling the oil field right now?
2. But if the first reason was GeoStrategic; oil can be an enjoyable benefit.
2 Concerning the second question about Geostrategic...well those oil reserves need military protection and backing...so why not throw down a few (or half dozen) permanent military bases thoughout the region to protect our (oil) assets....oh ya, and global security as well.
Is that GeoStrategic enough for you CrONoS?
____________________________
"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
____________________________
Whatever Hussein was or wasn't doing with Islam, it's not the same as supporting al-Qaeda; nor is a comment from Saddam's son, or the speculation on what may have happened at a meeting (according to an unnamed source) the same as supporting al-Qaeda.Originally posted by CrONoS
@Rufus
But what about the fact that S. Hussein did wrote words from the Koran on the flag (I don't remember which year)? Sign was indicating to us that S. Hussein was slowly transforming itself as a defender of Islam.
Why would we want a new openly hostile islamic regime in the middle east?
I'm not saying that Saddam was a right guy -- he was scum of the earth. But invading his country had f*ck-all to do with al-Qaeda, unless our plan was to strengthen them. If we wanted to invade a Middle Eastern country in the name of fighting al-Qaeda, the obvious choice was Saudi Arabia.
As for why I think we did do it: geostrategy. We wanted a base from which to project power in the Middle East, and Iraq seemed like the place to do it from. The fact that it's oil-rich is a serious bonus, but not the reason in-and-of itself. As for Saddam being a bad guy: that was a convenient excuse, but based on the number of bad guys we leave alone or even support, it hardly seems like the reason.
"I have as much authority as the pope. I just don't have as many people who believe it." — George Carlin
Please see this article and shut the hell up : http://www.inthenationalinterest.com...9kohlhaas.html
This oil crap is so hippy, so tired
Creative destruction.
Twenty days after the bombings, Uday Hussein (son of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein) praised Osama Bin Laden as "an Arab and Islamic hero."[5] Later, Richard A. Clarke, a top Clinton administration counterterrorism official, stated that one source reported that bin Laden had met with Iraqi officials who "may have offered him asylum" after the embassy bombings.[6]
Hmm, so Saddam's son, NOT Saddam, praised Osama. And a single source said Osama met with Iraqi officials. Was it the same source that claimed Atta met with Iraqis in Prague? Was it the same source that told us where the mobile biological weapons trucks were parked?
Please.
If you don't like reality, change it! me
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"it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
"Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw
A Point that ALL here should consider: OIL is traded on the International market in US DOLLARS.
Trust me, Bush wants Iraq (if not most of the Middleast to become pro-western). I myself, think it is a lost battle.
____________________________
"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
____________________________
IMHO the only significance of the oil was that it helped insulate saddam's regime from even harsher sanctions that would otherwise be used against it making open war more attractive to the administration.Originally posted by Wittlich
A Point that ALL here should consider: OIL is traded on the International market in US DOLLARS.
Trust me, Bush wants Iraq (if not most of the Middleast to become pro-western). I myself, think it is a lost battle.
When people say it was invaded "for oil" I always wonder what exactly about the oil the invasion was meant to change?
iran
Simply put: Economical influence.
You all recall Dune? "The Spice must flow"
Same goes for the western world (which is based on oil): "The Oil must flow"
Come on peoples connect the dots!
____________________________
"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
____________________________
Who gets it, how much, and at what price.Originally posted by Geronimo
When people say it was invaded "for oil" I always wonder what exactly about the oil the invasion was meant to change?
We must be concerned not merely about who murdered them, but about the system, the way of life, the philosophy which produced these murderers. - Martin Luther King Jr. Eulogy for the Martyred Children (1963)
Touche' You get it Kidicious!
____________________________
"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
____________________________
how will an invasion of iraq accomplish this even if all plans proceed exactly according to plan?Originally posted by Kidicious
Who gets it, how much, and at what price.
The only thing an invasion could conceivably have achieved is an increase in the price of oil and/or a drop in production. Why would the bush administration have aimed for an increase in the price of oil? why use an invasion to accomplish this when there are so many cheaper ways to increase the price of oil?
How would the invasion control who gets the oil?
How would the invasion either increase the quantity or decrease the price of oil?
I would also like to "get it".Originally posted by Wittlich
Touche' You get it Kidicious!
Explain how you might accomplish these things with an invasion and occupation.
Connect the dots for us. How would the invasion make the oil "flow" more readily?Originally posted by Wittlich
Simply put: Economical influence.
You all recall Dune? "The Spice must flow"
Same goes for the western world (which is based on oil): "The Oil must flow"
Come on peoples connect the dots!
I think they really did expect to find WMDs. Heck, Clinton came out in support of that reason.
I am not saying that was the main reason, but just because they didn't mind many WMDs doesn't mean they didn't believe there were.
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