The Holy Roman Empire? Seriously?!

[Kuciwalker]

I'm allowed to complain about it not being in the official game

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I'm allowed to complain about it not being in the official game

But it doesn't do any good.

[monkspider]

Well, I thank Locutus for shedding a bit of light on Firaxis' reasoning. Is Charlemagne's leaderhead so distinct that he can't be passed off as, say, a Hungarian or Polish leader? I know, it sounds desperate, but this is just such a tragically dumb move. Pinchak made a better analogy than my attempts in the initial post. Does this mean we might see in the future a Soviet Union civ? A Vichy France civ? An Abbasid Caliphate civ? Seriously, the floodgates are open at this point.

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
I'm allowed to complain about it not being in the official game

Quoted for truth. I am far from a proponent of Hebrew inclusion, but I would rather see them a thousand times than proto-Germany.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by monkspider
Does this mean we might see in the future a Soviet Union civ?

Well, you've already got them with Josef Stalin. They just don't have a different UU, UB, or flag than the Russians.

[Solver]

Is Charlemagne's leaderhead so distinct that he can't be passed off as, say, a Hungarian or Polish leader?

Like I said, I think you'd be better off renaming the civ itself. Charlemagne is a very worthy leader. The problem is more with the HRE civ itself, but no reason why you wouldn't mod him to belong to another civ.

[Alexander I]

Originally posted by Solver

Is Charlemagne's leaderhead so distinct that he can't be passed off as, say, a Hungarian or Polish leader?

Like I said, I think you'd be better off renaming the civ itself. Charlemagne is a very worthy leader. The problem is more with the HRE civ itself, but no reason why you wouldn't mod him to belong to another civ.

Indeed. Ol' Big Chuck can easily be modded into the French or the Germans, or the HRE can be renamed the Franks, Teutons, Carolingians, whatever you want ad nauseum.

[Virdrago]

When I do my modding, I'll just make Charlemagne leader of the Franks, and Sitting Bull leader of the Sioux (or make him one of the leaders of the Iroquois, despite the headress). I'd have to figure out a name change for the Totem Pole, though... what Native American culture had Dog Warriors? Anybody?

You could make him Frankish but since the Merovingian and Carolingian Franks were the first French that doesn't make any sense at all, the late Franks and the early French are one and the same people.

True. By the same token, the Byzantines were Romans who spoke Greek, and still considered themselves the Roman Empire until the Ottomans took Constantinople in 1453. Only historians today call them the Byzantine Empire, and only because Rome had fallen by then, and calling it the Roman Empire 1000 years after the fall of Rome would make no sense either.

That's why I believe Franks would have been just fine.

I'm happy about the rest, though. I'm certain we'll get Siam and Morocco later (and the Hittites), either in the next XP or Civ 5.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Alexander I
But it doesn't do any good.

If enough people whine about the lack of Hebrews, they might come in Civ 5.

[monkspider]

Originally posted by Virdrago

I'm happy about the rest, though. I'm certain we'll get Siam and Morocco later (and the Hittites), either in the next XP or Civ 5.

Alright, time for a thread hijack. Does everyone else agree that this will be the last XP? They probably could have stretched things out for another XP if they didn't include so many new civs in this one.

There really isn't enough quality civs left to justify a third XP at this point. There is Siam, Hebrews, Poland, Polynesia, maybe someone like the Hittites or Assyrians, maybe a modern nation like Australia, but that's it, and I would consider those to be definite third string civs. There are still a lot of leaders for existing civs like the always mentioned Spain/Japan/Arabs. But with all the new units, techs and so on, I think they have pretty much shot their load on what could possibly be added at this point unless they go for something that totally expands the scope of the game, like a new "future" age beyond the modern age.

Are we all pretty much in agreement on this?

[Robert]

The "Charlemagne must be in civ" argument is pretty good. He's indeed maybe one of the most important leaders on earth ever anyway. He had a huge impact on Europe, and therefor on the world.

I think it's a pitty though that he hasn't been named "Carl the Great" though. But maybe he'll be named like that in European versions of civ? I never heard of Charlemagne, untill someone pointed out to me that he's Carl the Great. Carl the Great is known among everybody who at least payed attention at least 10 seconds during history lessons.

@America in as a civ:
yes, obviously America should be in as a civ. Maybe the USA doesn't have old roots or something, but they're clearly a dominant civilization in the modern times. The influence of jeans, coca cola, Mcdonalds and Hollywood all over the world justifies the inclusion of the USA already. And the USSR is already in, in fact, since Stalin is in. Ok, it's called Russia, but the USA is being called America as well, so that doesn't really make a change.

@Hebrews
I think that the Hebrews really really deserve to be in the game. Maybe they're small but their cultural impact on the world is huge, if not only for the reason that 2 of the major world religions (Christianity, Islam) have their offspring in some way in the Hebrew history. Not to start about their scientific influence in modern days, 160 noble price winners anyone!!??. And obviously their impact in modern times regarding the Middle East Problem.

It's a pitty that there are still no Hebrews in since there are many interesting scenarios waiting!
They're most probably not in b/c political reasons, and the fear for antisemitism. But once again, Judaism is in the game as a religion, and there haven't been huge islamitic demonstrations in front of the Firaxis office because "Saladin converted to Judaism" so far anyway. (Not to mention that I couldn't spread Islam to Arabia in one of my last games )

[Robert]

Can someone explain to me why Poland is considered to be a 'major' civ? I don't want to be cruel against the Polish people, but seriously..........

[Locutus]

Originally posted by CyberShy
I think it's a pitty though that he hasn't been named "Carl the Great" though. But maybe he'll be named like that in European versions of civ? I never heard of Charlemagne, untill someone pointed out to me that he's Carl the Great. Carl the Great is known among everybody who at least payed attention at least 10 seconds during history lessons.

He's called Charlemagne because that was his name: that is the Latinised version of his name and Latin was the lingua franca in those days (his native name was in some ancient Franconian language that doesn't exist anymore, I don't know if we know even what he was called in that). He's called that or something similar to that in most major European languages (French, English, Spanish, Italian), so most of the world knows him as such. Only in German, Scandinavian and Dutch is his name a variation of Karl der Große. If you never heard of the name Charlemagne that is an error on your side, not Firaxis's.

[Robert]

i will not blame Firaxis for the fact that I didn't knew Charlemagne = Karel de Grote before I heard it from BtS

I do not blame myself either. It's not as if I'm deep into history, but I've always payed attention during history lessons, and he's never been named "Charlemagne" during those lessons, neither have I ever seen that name in papers, magazines or anything, and it's not as if I haven't read many papers (Trouw, Volkskrant, AD, Elsevier, VN, HP de Tijd, Quest, Donald Duck )

[Locutus]

Then you've had shabby history classes (which granted is pretty much a given for anything below university-level education) and read all the wrong things

[Robert]

Originally posted by Locutus
Then you've had shabby history classes (which granted is pretty much a given for anything below university-level education) and read all the wrong things

Or you just did got an academical education and think that everybody who's not that educated on your specialism is either dumb or got a crappy education